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Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by KerrAvon on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:25PM (#34252780)
> There had been parallel tracks, and prototypes of a truly web-based OS, but they didn't launch. Cocoa was already Plan A when Jobs described the web as a "great application platform" at Moscone.

AFAIK, this is completely false. There was never a webOS-type proposal. Where do people come up with this stuff?

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by falcolas on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:31PM (#34252863)
There's a lot of "here's the reasoning behind what they did" with nothing backing it up but their word. It's an implicit appeal to their authority, and I personally have no idea who they are.

Digging in, it seems like they worked on Chrome for several years before moving over to Edge. That would give them at least some technical insight into what happened at Google, if not the reasons behind those decisions.

Even so, it still feels like a lot more speculation than actual facts.

But that's me.

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by BuckyBeaver on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @07:08PM (#34253911)
But it's not ONLY you. Several of the author's core assertions are demonstrably wrong.
Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by dmitriid on Saturday January 07, 2023 @02:52PM (#34291932)
> It's an implicit appeal to their authority, and I personally have no idea who they are.

Alex Russel, a developer, team lead and developer advocate for Google for 13 years from 2008 to 2021. He's one of the primary people responsible for the web components mess.

He's quite well known in hte web/web-adjacent world. During his work at Google he would:

- go out of his way to blame and gaslight Apple for everything

- defend and any and all Chrome-only non-standards that Chrome was (and still is) churning out at ever-accelerating rate, completely ignoring any and all standards processes, or other browser vendors' input

- be completely silent on "how Google killed mobile web" and only blaming Apple

Once he went to work for Microsoft he started bashing Google, too.

The amount of grains of salt tyou need to take to read anything he writes that is not strictly technnical would cause world-wide salt deficit for any forseeable future.

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by detourdog on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:33PM (#34252883)
The Macs desktop widgets was considered as an alternative to an App Store. They would run on the existing iPhone.
Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by brookst on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:46PM (#34253040)
Sounds interesting. Source?
Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by bluk on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:12PM (#34253339)
Amongst others, probably referring to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1nwLilQy64

and

https://www.cultofmac.com/125180/steve-jobs-was-originally-d...

Whether it's revisionist history or not, there were later claims that Steve Jobs knew they couldn't have a native platform ready when the iPhone was first announced so they stalled for time to a) get the App Store ready and b) see what types of app ideas were popular to get those platform APIs finalized. The interim solution was web apps with recommendations to look at the Dashboard APIs in Mac OS X (which were basically web apps).

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by detourdog on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:07PM (#34253291)
After the iPhone but before the App Store I was at a developer event in NYC. If you comb the internet for the developer talk at that time you can see it alluded to. In fact Apple still insists that the web is a perfectly good place for these not App Store suitable.

Source not really it was a vibe at the time.

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by kefka_p on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:56PM (#34253173)
I don’t know anything about an AppStore alternative but I do seem to recall a presentation or two mentioning using Dashboard widgets as a route for development.
Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by detourdog on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:38PM (#34253632)
Yes, App Store didn’t exist and that was the talk.
Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by manicennui on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:54PM (#34253148)
I don't know what "truly web-based OS" means exactly, but Jobs was very resistant to third-party apps at first.

"Initially, third-party native applications were not supported. Jobs' reasoning was that developers could build web applications through the Safari web browser that 'would behave like native apps on the iPhone'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS#History

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by toyg on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:30PM (#34253544)
Jobs' priority was to cut off the telcos. Carriers used to be in charge of phone OSes, preloading a lot of clunky bullshit that typically ruined the experience. He wanted to avoid that arrangement, because it would mean relinquishing control - commercial anathema for him. So he went with a setup where telcos couldn't screw up things even if they tried to: web-apps couldn't mess with the overall system stability.

Once it became clear the phone was desirable enough for telcos to leave it alone, he pivoted to what would give him even more control.

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by Melatonic on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @07:08PM (#34253904)
This seems like the most likely scenariou
Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by giantrobot on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @07:36PM (#34254159)
Not really. The iPhone just barely shipped on time. It was a death march development up to FCS (first customer ship). Most of what were eventually released as public APIs didn't even exist in iOS 1.0. Hell most of the first party apps on the phone just barely ran. Web apps were the only practical way to get third party code running reliably on iOS 1.0.

Even after the 1.0 release Apple went back into death march development mode to polish up a usable SDK. Even that first SDK had a tiny surface area compared all the frameworks available on the OS. It wasn't until iOS 3 that the SDK felt fully functional and not polished until iOS 4.

Web apps were a stopgap. Early iOS was just barely above an advanced demo in terms of quality and functionality. A lot of frameworks didn't even have stable APIs to release for third party developers.

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by misnome on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:20PM (#34255466)
> because it would mean relinquishing control - commercial anathema for him

Also, like, the forced carrier apps on every generic phone before the iPhone either ruined or crippled the experience of using the phone, locking you into their shitty ad-laden applications or forcing you through their terrible browsers and web portals.

To me, and several people I knew at the time - It was one of the big appeals of the iPhone that Apple had drawn a hard line at not allowing any of this.

It was 100% actually better for the consumer.

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by xenadu02 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:08PM (#34253293)
The situation was slightly more complicated. Half of the original launch apps on the phone were first built as JS web apps. Most were completely rewritten to be native apps before launch (and the rest after launch) because it was clear that the native experience was superior.

Only later was the decision made to ship a public SDK. Web apps were announced because that's the only thing third parties could use. There was no public API to speak of, just a collection of internal APIs and one-offs in individual apps.

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by zozbot234 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:16PM (#34253384)
You know what other phone OS ran exclusively web-based JS apps? Firefox OS. And it was a dismal failure. Pivoting to native apps on the early iPhone models was absolutely the right call.
Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by afavour on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:46PM (#34253708)
I wouldn’t assume that Firefox OS failed where iOS succeeded just because of the use of web features. There were hundreds of other factors involved.
Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by esprehn on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @08:35PM (#34254742)
As someone close to that situation, Firefox OS's failure had nothing to do with being web based beyond the fact that it was incompatible with the two dominant mobile platforms.

Ex. If you can't run the Android or iOS YouTube app, what you have left is the web one... which could be amazing, but is hardly a fully functional PWA because Google would rather you used the native app.

Firefox OS would have failed all the same had it been based on Qt, or even if it was based on Java without the Android runtime and SDK.

Re:Why Google and Apple act the way they do, working to snuf... by sergioramos on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:39PM (#34253642)
IIRC Don Melton mentioned that.