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Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by maxbond on Saturday December 31, 2022 @02:00PM (#34199548)
> When European settlers and explorers first encountered the Native peoples of the Americas, they sought to force the fact of the Native people’s existence into a Biblical worldview. The First Peoples, who built the impressive earthworks, monuments, temples and pyramids throughout the Americas, were recast as members of a lost tribe of Israelites, Irish sailors, or possibly Vikings, for the ideological convenience of settlers.

> The pretence that the first peoples of the Americas were a different race than Native Americans – a view known today as the Myth of the Moundbuilders – became extremely popular in the 18th and 19th centuries.

I'm always struck by how there's nothing new under the sun. This is basically the same conspiracy theory as Ancient Aliens, with different aesthetics for different centuries.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by eesmith on Saturday December 31, 2022 @02:43PM (#34199954)
Minor nit: not all of the Norse settlers of Vinland were Christian.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by stevehawk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @02:43PM (#34199961)
I toured those mounds near St Louis.. it's absolutely amazing. Especially since none of my childhood public education made a single effort to state their existence, let alone go into just how much of a society existed before we (Europeans) showed up.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by mason55 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @03:35PM (#34200456)
That’s interesting. Where I grew up in central Ohio, we had a whole year of “Ohio history” in, I think, 4th grade. We spent a ton of time on the Ohio mound builders and even took a class trip to see the mounds.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Mound

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by mbg721 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @03:57PM (#34200669)
Serpent Mound and Sunwatch are the big show-stoppers, but lots of Ohioans have mounds practically in their backyards. My dad used to joke that the Adena and Hopewell had some mounds for burial, and some for religious rituals, but the one near our house was where they threw their empty beer bottles.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by throwayyy479087 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:35PM (#34201461)
There’s oyster cairns all over NYs coastal and riparian plains. Not protected or anything, you can go and poke around
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:59PM (#34201627)
Maine, too.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by mrexroad on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:01PM (#34200694)
> “[…] archaeologists believe that the mound's creation could have been influenced by two different astronomical events: the light from the supernova that created the Crab Nebula in the year 1054 CE […] The light of the supernova would have been visible for two weeks after it first reached earth, which could even be seen in broad day light.“

I can’t even begin to imagine how humans would have interpreted such an event.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by thaumasiotes on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:40PM (#34201054)
Historical records from the year 1054 are available (and are of course the reason we date the nebula to "1054" rather than "the eleventh century"). You can just go see what people of the time thought.

Wikipedia doesn't quote the records associated with 1054, but does quote the record of a supernova in the year 185:

> In the 2nd year of the epoch Zhongping [中平], the 10th month, on the day Guihai [癸亥] [December 7, Year 185], a 'guest star' appeared in the middle of the Southern Gate [南門] [an asterism consisting of ε Centauri and α Centauri], The size was half a bamboo mat. It displayed various colors, both pleasing and otherwise. It gradually lessened. In the 6th month of the succeeding year it disappeared.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_185 )

What people thought appears to have been "sometimes there are new stars, but they go away again".

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by moloch-hai on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:41PM (#34201921)
Anyway people transcribing what they wrote thought that. A very great deal of such Chinese history was sketchily paraphrased when copying to newer media.

And it tells us nothing of what people on other continents thought. The null hypothesis would be that it varied.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by thaumasiotes on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:18AM (#34204907)
The null hypothesis for a celestial phenomenon like this is that it was viewed as an omen. But since it is not obviously good or bad and isn't responsive to anything on Earth, you'd expect it to be viewed as support for whatever anyone already believed. Omens that appear during unpopular reigns are bad omens. Omens that appear during popular reigns are good omens.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by heavyset_go on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:21PM (#34202197)
Throughout different periods, there were cultures in the Americas that found intense spiritual and political significance in astronomy.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Keysh on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:02AM (#34204273)
> Wikipedia doesn't quote the records associated with 1054

Wait, what? The Wikipedia article on SN 1054 has an extensive discussion of the Chinese records (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1054#Chinese_astronomy), as well as Japanese records and the Arabic account of Ibn Butlan.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by thaumasiotes on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:54AM (#34215842)
My mistake.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Keysh on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:55AM (#34204252)
"archaeologists believe that the mound's creation could have been influenced by two different astronomical events: the light from the supernova that created the Crab Nebula"

That's a pretty dubious assertion (and I notice that there aren't any references to which archaeologists supposedly believe this), since:

a) I'm pretty sure there aren't any examples of buildings or structures being "influenced" by this or any other historical supernova in any other cultures; and

b) No mention of the supernova of 1006, which was brighter and longer-lasting than the supernova of 1054?

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by mrexroad on Sunday January 01, 2023 @05:09AM (#34205142)
Hat in hand here — I miss read that as BCE…
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by xen2xen1 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:55PM (#34211410)
Indeed. I'm from Indiana, our 4th grade had lots of Indiana history, and talked about the mound builders a lot. We have a small one uphill from our local YMCA. We talked about the local mounds regulary, from here to St. Louis. Seems to be almost a weird sense of local pride.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by mbg721 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @02:48PM (#34200016)
Cahokia is shockingly big, and the idea of multiple successive societies of mound-builders is sort of ignored or taken for granted; the concept of American Indians who wouldn't fit into a John Wayne movie doesn't cross Americans' minds.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by prpl on Saturday December 31, 2022 @03:26PM (#34200369)
On that point, can you name even 1 pre-columbian films that doesn’t involve a white person?

Here is a relevant wikipedia article:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_set_in_pre-Co...

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by mbg721 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @03:46PM (#34200565)
I don't know many movies set in pre-Columbian America at all. The idea that this was once the largest city in North America north of Mexico and it's as unknown as it is even to people who live nearby is crazy to me.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by mrexroad on Saturday December 31, 2022 @03:53PM (#34200633)
One tragedy, on top of the mountain of others, is that their histories were passed down orally. Much of that has been destroyed.

One thing that struck me when I read about The Great Flood of 1862 [0], was that the Native Americans recognized the weather patterns for a series of atmospheric rivers and warned the settlers to relocate to the hills. (Tl;Dr: Central Valley ca was under water for months, Sacramento was abandoned) IIRC, it wasn’t until the 1990s that we had the ability to detect/”recognize” atmospheric rivers with satellites and finally gave them a name.

[edit: added link] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by throwayyy479087 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:32PM (#34201426)
I’m Hacker News’ resident chud, but this is an actual issue. Natives exist only in relation to colonization. Prey, Apocalypto, and other well-made movies about first peoples ALWAYS include a white guy. Prey was egregious, could have easily only been about natives.

Maybe Atanarjuat doesn’t?

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by adolph on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:42PM (#34201937)
It is odd that Apocalypto included conquistadors as contact was very late in the story of the Maya:

Meanwhile, the two remaining Raiders chase Jaguar Paw towards the coast, where all three are astonished at the sight of Spanish conquistadors making their way to the shore. As the two Raiders are confounded by the Spanish ships and begin walking towards the coast, Jaguar Paw uses the distraction to flee and return to his village.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypto

Although much reduced, a significant Maya presence remained into the Postclassic period after the abandonment of the major Classic period cities; the population was particularly concentrated near permanent water sources.[78] Unlike during previous cycles of contraction in the Maya region, abandoned lands were not quickly resettled in the Postclassic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_...

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by TigeriusKirk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:10PM (#34202122)
There was a good indie film a while back, On The Ice, that I believe only had native peoples in it. It's a contemporary setting, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Ice

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by tiahura on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:23PM (#34202213)
Nobody’s old enough to remember Windwalker? A major release in 81 and subtitled.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Keysh on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:54AM (#34204519)
If you actually look at the link prpi provided, there are several examples. E.g., Atanarjuat: The Fast Runner (yes), Hiawatha, and Kings of the Sun; if you allow animated films, there's Pachamama and The Emperor's New Groove. More recent examples not in that list include the Canadian movies Maina (2013) and Edge of the Knife (2018).
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by pvaldes on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:17PM (#34208276)
People talk about what they know. A more relevant list probably would be how many American natives are filmmakers. I assume that they have several films without any white on it.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:01PM (#34200697)
> concept of American Indians who wouldn't fit into a John Wayne movie doesn't cross Americans' minds

“Dances With Wolves”, nominated for 12 Academy awards and won 7. Guess you missed that one.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by mbg721 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:30PM (#34200980)
I actually haven't seen it, you're right, but my understanding is that it's about the Sioux in the American Western frontier, which is more in line with media stereotypes than, for instance, the Iroquois in New York or Seminoles in Florida.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by pookah on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:10PM (#34201279)
Comanche were the stereotype. The memory of the Comanche empire would have been fresh in the minds of Americans (and Mexicans) in the classical hollywood era. Comanche held territory from Kansas all the way to Mexico. They literally destroyed Northern Mexico. Europeans have no idea how intense life was for anybody that had to live in and around that tribe. And this was in the 1870's (not the 1400's).
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:16PM (#34201327)
Perhaps you should see a seminal film before making sweeping judgements of American film portrayal of Native Americas? I'm not sure what your reference to the Iroquois and Seminoles has to do with it. Certain tribes are in American awareness more than others. That happened pre-TV and modern-day media. I don't think you get to decide who Kevin Costner writes films about, but you could write your own.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by ijidak on Saturday December 31, 2022 @03:04PM (#34200181)
Wow! As an American that feels somewhat knowledgeable about Native American history, I can't believe I've never heard of this!?!?

Sadly, the effect of past racisms and prejudices still distort what has become common knowledge today.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by wardedVibe on Saturday December 31, 2022 @11:25PM (#34203589)
You might want to read 1491.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by rayiner on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:17PM (#34200849)
Where did you go to elementary school? In Virginia we spent enormous amounts of time (way too long) covering Native American history.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Avshalom on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:32PM (#34201000)
no you didn't
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by jcranmer on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:11PM (#34201698)
I wouldn't say we spent too long covering it, but having grown up near rayiner but a decade or so after from them, we covered it several times. It was the first unit of 6th and 11th grade US history, as well as 4th grade state history, and tangentially covered in 5th grade world history.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by moloch-hai on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:44PM (#34201952)
In Hawaii I mostly got Laplanders, year after year. I guess they are Sami now?
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by throwayyy479087 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:37PM (#34201471)
Same. Any time someone complains about X not being taught in school, it’s important to remember that it likely is taught and they likely didn’t pay attention.

Hell, we made atlatls in middle school

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by hedgehog on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:26PM (#34200940)
For whatever reason there's a consistent tendency for people of every era I've read about to think they are the smartest and most advanced that have walked the earth, topping a long arc of progress. The more I read about history the more obvious it is that over and over we've gained and then lost significant bodies of knowledge about civil engineering, surveying, agriculture, navigation, mathematics, etc. Pretty amazing.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by WalterBright on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:06PM (#34201664)
I watch a lot of ancient history shows on PBS, etc. There are many groaners in there about "sophisticated astronomy", like when some ancients managed to point a building at the summer solstice. Another groaner is bleating about "advanced engineering" when talking about a large mound or pile of rocks.

One of the dumbest was the claim that the close fits of rocks in South America "so tight a knife won't fit in the cracks" must have been done by space alien technology. This silliness persisted until an archaeologist showed how to make such a joint in about half an hour by banging and rubbing rocks together.

What the ancients did do very well with, however, was manipulating the natural world to their benefit. I.e. making gardens, cultivating plants, managing livestock, etc.

Edit: for those who are wondering, the altitude and azimuth of the sun at the solstice can be accurately determined simply by erecting a vertical pointed stick, and having a bit of patience. That's it.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by ummonk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:19PM (#34202185)
Have any examples? My general summary of technological / scientific / engineering history would be that people in past eras who thought they were more advanced than anyone prior were largely correct.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by hedgehog on Saturday December 31, 2022 @08:17PM (#34202569)
Sure, plenty of historical examples of things that were in wide use and then misunderstood or forgotten. The scale and precision of cities like Angkor Wat or Tikal including canal systems. Large scale systematic fish trapping and fisheries management in many places including the Salish Sea. Controlled burning and cultivation of a variety of crops across the North American plains. The three sisters planting system. Pacific islander open ocean navigation, especially the stick charts. Persian evaporatively cooled architecture (qanat + wind catcher). Progress is uneven and non-linear and it takes a while to figure out we've gone backwards. For example controlled burns had a purpose but at some point in the US we decided to put out every fire. Turns out that causes problems. People decided to seal buildings up super tight with no ventilation for energy efficiency reasons. Turns out that causes problems too (mostly solvable with more technology in this case). Europeans showed up in the Pacific Northwest and thought it was a bunch of savages living in the wilderness. Turns out it was a structured society with large scale systematic agriculture, just not in a way that was easily understood by outsiders of the time. The Kansas Dust Bowl is a whole microcosm of this. The ancient Greeks, Romans, Chinese, etc washed their hands but in the US just 150 years ago it was not considered necessary. It's a meandering path.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by ummonk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @09:59PM (#34203140)
A lot of what you have listed is more about knowledge of local ecosystems - not "civil engineering, surveying, agriculture, navigation, mathematics, etc.".

As to some of the more general science knowledge though, subsequent societies could certainly replicate the scale and precision of cities like Angkor Wat or Tikal. Likewise, later ocean navigators had far more sophisticated navigation methods, using such tools as the compass and the kamat. As to qanat and wind-catcher architecture, it wasn't ever really lost...

I'll grant you that knowledge of public health has been very uneven, though it has generally been on the upswing in the past couple centuries (as objectively measured by life expectancy and the burden of communicable diseases), nothwithstanding certain missteps (such as adopting droplet theory which was less accurate than miasma theory).

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Cupertino95014 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:11PM (#34201290)
> I'm always struck by how there's nothing new under the sun

The fact that the 19th century featured provably wrong theories about where the native peoples came from is not suggestive of anything. They thought there was an ether that light traveled through, too.

Native peoples' myths are often "we were always here; we sprang from the earth." Well, we all came from Africa, ultimately.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by maxbond on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:58PM (#34201620)
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not making an argument (ie I'm not claiming this to prove anything), I'm remarking on a pattern that I see recur, and an example in this article that sparked my interest. Not every comment is an argument, and not every discussion needs to be a debate.

I think it's interesting that conspiracy theory tropes seem to recur very reliably over time. I have an interest in this topic and when I'm reading about it, I find there's a lot of rhyming.

Conspiracism and exploded scientific hypothesis are quite different in nature. They're "wrong" in quite different ways. I recently made a comment addressing this and it might interest you:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34186172

To your last point, origin myths are a claim about religious truth, not scientific truth. You can't meaningfully compare statements from different epistemologies like that.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Cupertino95014 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:13PM (#34201709)
I take your point about origin myths and epistemology, but the original article makes repeated points about the First Peoples being left out of the debate.

So how would they be left IN? Would the archeological community say to them, respectfully, "Our evidence is that First Peoples arrived from Siberia somewhere between 20,000 - 10,000 BCE. What do you think?"

So what would their reaction be? Would it be:

1) We don't know; our myths don't go back that far; you tell US, or

2) You are a colonialist to even talk about this.

??

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by maxbond on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:41PM (#34201922)
I don't have all the answers, and I certainly can't react on behalf behalf of First Peoples (and even if that were my ethnicity, I could of course still only respond on my own behalf, as they are not a monolith), but I think the answer lies somewhere in the tension between archeologists & anthropologists taking native people seriously, native people becoming archaeologists & anthropologists & being respected as colleagues, and having the humility to accept that some peoples feel like we've lost their trust & aren't entitled to the pieces of the puzzle they may have (a legitimate and frankly understandable position).
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Cupertino95014 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:12PM (#34202135)
> native people becoming archaeologists & anthropologists & being respected as colleagues

Has that in fact happened?

> we've lost their trust & aren't entitled to the pieces of the puzzle they may have

That would be unfortunate, but if you're an anthropologist who'd like to solve the puzzle, what should you do?

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by maxbond on Saturday December 31, 2022 @08:57PM (#34202797)
> Has that in fact happened?

Certainly. I've heard of some native archaeologists, but I'll confess I'm not super up on the topic.

> If you're an anthropologist who'd like to solve the puzzle, what should you do?

Well, if you're an anthropologist, and some group of people makes it very clear they aren't a puzzle & won't be studied (say, the people of Sentinel Island) - go do something else maybe? Curiosity doesn't entitle you to answers, there's plenty of other stuff for an anthropologist to do. I feel like the first rule of anthropology is, "respect the culture you're studying and take it seriously," and if what they're telling you is "mind your business" - well, listen.

Returning to Sentinel Island, we might not know why they don't want to talk to us, but they've made it abundantly clear that the lines of communication are closed. Surely we could spy on them from satellites, drop surveillance devices from helicopters, et cetera, and start to understand their culture that way. For that matter, we could create some sort of arrow-proof vehicle and overpower their efforts to repel us. But why should be? Just because we're curious about them? Why should we privilege our curiosity over their clear desire to be left alone?

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Cupertino95014 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @09:31PM (#34202991)
Sentinel Island is of more limited interest than "when did homo sapiens arrive in the Americas?" though.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by maxbond on Saturday December 31, 2022 @10:04PM (#34203164)
Sure, but there's also many threads to tug on there, you doing need to demand any particular person or group share what they know with you if they don't want to. You can break out your map and start looking for promising sites.

And if they are interested in sharing their oral tradition with you, and you sneer at it - well, they might rescind your invitation.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Cupertino95014 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:07AM (#34203781)
> Sure, but there's also many threads to tug on there, you doing need to demand any particular person or group share what they know with you if they don't want to.

In any case, what constitutes "sneering" at their oral tradition? As you said, science & religion are not the same. So what should a scientist do if their beliefs differ from science's?

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by maxbond on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:21AM (#34204353)
The scientist should thank them for their time, refrain from patronizing them, and continue going about their day.

Sneering would be something like saying, and I mean this with all due respect, "you didn't come out of the ground in that canyon, we all came from Africa" - misconstruing what they're saying, seeking to correct rather than understand, generally being rude and dismissive. If someone shares something with you, it's up to you to figure out how and whether to incorporate it into your epistemology; if you're having trouble with that, it might be tempting to say, "the problem is that your epistemology sucks," but a.) That's an indecent way to treat someone and b.) No one is going to learn anything that way and c.) The problem is actually that you gave up on trying to understand, not that there was no resolution to the conundrum, and not that their epistemology is "inferior" in some way.

Consider that when a native culture has an origin story involving a specific place, regardless of whether we have believe that humanity evolved there, there is really no reason to doubt their culture emerged there and that that place has an important bearing in their.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Cupertino95014 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:32AM (#34207703)
> The scientist should thank them for their time, refrain from patronizing them, and continue going about their day.

I'm pretty sure that's what I would do.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by ummonk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:37PM (#34201890)
I mean in many ways the aether theory was correct - it just turned out that the aether was a relativistic EM field.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Cupertino95014 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:13PM (#34202146)
They thought it was a "substance" as I recall. I guess that term is broad enough to encompass a relativistic EM field.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by ummonk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:29PM (#34202254)
The conception of the aether was not some kind of substance of the kind that we get with physical solids, gases, and liquids, but more of a medium through which EM waves propagate. That's really what the EM field is. The big difference is that the EM field is Minkowskian whereas the aether was originally conceived of as Galilean (and the Galilean aether was decisively falsified by experiments).
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by Cupertino95014 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:15PM (#34208952)
I don't know what that means, but that's on me, not on you. If you want to explain it, feel free, but no obligation.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by ummonk on Sunday January 01, 2023 @09:27PM (#34213533)
Well so basically the original thinking was that if electromagnetic waves travelled through a medium, then they would have a constant speed relative to this medium. As such, an object moving relative to this medium would measure different speeds for waves in different directions. No such effect was found, despite doing such things as measuring when the Earth was going in a different direction around the Sun.

These results decreased belief in an aether (though more complex experiments were needed to falsify the possibility that the Earth was dragging aether with it). Additionally, a series of length / time dilations were proposed for moving objects to explain the bizarre fact that the speed of the any light was measured the same regardless of the relative movement of the measuring observer. At this point Einstein stepped in and explained the theory of Special Relativity and how speeds don't add linearly and distances and times don't transform as one would naively expect under Galilean relativity. It was a really a generalization of the previously proposed Lorentz transformations that returned to the idea that all movement was relative. The spacetime that transforms in this way is called "Minkowskian".

Eventually after this, Quantum Mechanics developed into Quantum Field Theory, which is inherently relativistic and embedded in Minkowskian spacetime. In this view, electromagnetic photons are just excitations of the quantum field. Things basically came full circle and the quantum field is essentially an aether as envisioned all along. The difference is that it is relativistic / Minkowskian, and as such doesn't have a particular reference frame in which it is "not moving".

Note that even before the development fo QFT, this is what Einstein was saying: "More careful reflection teaches us however, that the special theory of relativity does not compel us to deny ether. We may assume the existence of an ether; only we must give up ascribing a definite state of motion to it, i.e. we must by abstraction take from it the last mechanical characteristic which Lorentz had still left it. We shall see later that this point of view, the conceivability of which I shall at once endeavour to make more intelligible by a somewhat halting comparison, is justified by the results of the general theory of relativity."

Einstein's whole letter is a great read: https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/Extras/Einstein_ether/

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by WalterBright on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:48PM (#34201552)
I saw a PBS show some years back that found traces of french DNA in the eastern tribes, along with some similarities of arrowheads with some found in caves in France. The speculation is that some ice age french cavemen crossed the Atlantic ice to get to America.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by sct202 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:29PM (#34201824)
That theory has lost a lot of legs in the past few years now that DNA results from ancient North Americans have been sequenced and they don't show any affinity to Europeans, such as Anzick-1 who's body was found in a Clovis burial and Kennewick Man who's skull shape was used as proof by Solutrean Hypothesis supporters. https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14625

If the documentary was older than 2015, it's likely they didn't have this information and would be relying on inferences from the DNA of modern populations, which would be complicated by mixed race people.

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by LarryMullins on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:23PM (#34201781)
This is known as the Solutrean hypothesis. I understand it to be controversial, but it seems like everything about this topic is controversial to somebody.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by adolph on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:47PM (#34201974)
Sounds like part of Thor Heyerdahl's larger theory of vikings everywhere. Part of the story was folks settling the Pacific from South America, recreated in the Kon-Tiki expedition.

Heyerdahl believed that people from South America could have reached Polynesia during pre-Columbian times. His aim in mounting the Kon-Tiki expedition was to show, by using only the materials and technologies available to those people at the time, that there were no technical reasons to prevent them from having done so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition

Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by LarryMullins on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:27PM (#34202243)
Solutrean culture in France predated the vikings by something like 20,000 years, give or take a few. They have nothing to do with each other at all.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by WalterBright on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:48PM (#34201978)
It had nothing to do with Heyerdahl.
Re:When did the First Peoples arrive in America? by caethan on Saturday December 31, 2022 @09:11PM (#34202873)
Part of the reason why in particular English & French settlers saw the local Indians as incapable of building the things they saw is because by the time they were settling these areas, the local Indians were massively depopulated and really weren't capable of it anymore. This isn't the case in the Spanish settlement regions because the Spanish got there so much earlier and actually saw the complex societies in their heyday. Bernal Diaz exploring and conquering Mexico in 1521 was not dismissive of the locals' construction abilities! Mexico did depopulate - it didn't reach the same population as it had in the early 1500s until the mid-20th century - but the plagues didn't hit until the Spanish saw what was there.