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Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by keewee7 on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:19AM (#34136373)
>low income countries have not been "overwhelmed" by Covid

India was completely devastated by COVID-19.

One reason was that India failed to focus their care on actually vulnerable elderly people and they instead had 30-something dudes demanding intensive care and taking up oxygen cylinders for themselves and their families.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by ramraj07 on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:38AM (#34136486)
I agree that india bungled their Covid response royally (though not unexpectedly for me) but what evidence do you have that it was all because of 30-somethings hogging the oxygen cylinders.

I myself predicted there will be a run on oxygen concentrators and had one rented for my mom in case. But when delta hit I couldn’t in good conscience keep it and returned it back to the hospital. I know many rich families did not do that and hoarded cylinders and concentrators like this when people were dying. However I’m not convinced that this was the reason for the massive suffering caused in india. It’s just another facet of the cruelty that happened during this time.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by fancybouncy on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:33AM (#34136455)
Isn't most of India's population very young (half of it is under 15)? I'm skeptical that the "vulnerable elderly people" had much impact on India's covid story.

Either way, the elderly have already lived their life, isn't it better to focus on the younger people when a choice must be made?

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by noduerme on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:28AM (#34136775)
If you had two hard drives and had to destroy one, without knowing what was on them, only how much information they each contained... wouldn't you keep the one with more stored in its memory?
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by Kwpolska on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:45AM (#34136881)
You’re focusing on the memories and experiences of a person, but are completely ignoring the potential to grow, develop, and do things - something that 30-year-olds have, and 90-year-olds pretty much don’t.
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by noduerme on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:51AM (#34136916)
But it only takes 30 years to make a 30 year old. They're at least 3x more replaceable than 90 year olds.

[edit] also, do things for whom? To what end if not to build experience?

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by abofh on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:04PM (#34139473)
Alternatively, most 30 year olds have 30 more years to contribute to society. Most 90 year olds do not.
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by archagon on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:42PM (#34143563)
Why is “ability to contribute to society” a factor in considering who to save? Down that path lies euthanasia of the disabled and mentally ill.
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by fancybouncy on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @11:50AM (#34162871)
and this is bad how?
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by headsoup on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:15AM (#34137054)
Yeah it definitely makes sense to sacrifice the children for the elderly, I mean what good are the kids of tomorrow without the old of today.

In other words I'm saying that's a silly analogy

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by noduerme on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:42AM (#34137212)
>> what good are the kids of tomorrow without the old of today

Worshipping youth in its ignorance and speed while discarding the wisdom of elders is called fascism. The right question would be what can civilization hope to achieve besides a reversion to barbarism and "Lord of the Flies" if it doesn't hold its oldest, most vulnerable and most wise members, and their experience, in the highest regard?

The young have always been proud and disposable. And if they don't die young, they get old. Then maybe they have something more interesting to say.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by headsoup on Monday December 26, 2022 @10:51AM (#34138603)
Wow straight to the fascism argument, nice. I fail to see at all how sacrificing the young and healthy for the old and ill is not fascism, but sacrificing the old and ill for the young is? Isn't a component (not all...) of fascism any sacrifice 'for the good of the nation.' Didn't realise it was so specific.

You're putting the wrong lens on this. My argument is that we are to deliberately harm the young to possibly protect the old and ill (which in this case isn't so as the vaccines don't guarantee prevention), rather than leaving them alone in the hope of protecting the old and ill as-is. Not 'let the old die for the young.'

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by joshuahedlund on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:26AM (#34137112)
When you have 1.4 billion people, even a lower proportion of older folks is a huge number. Including a lot lost “only” in their 50’s and 60’s.
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by chrisco255 on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:51AM (#34136558)
India suffered a 28% increase in excessive deaths from 2020-2021:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.30.21264376v...

In line with many first world countries: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-...

Notably, sub-Saharan Africa did not suffer greatly from Covid.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by noduerme on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:49AM (#34136900)
>> Notably, sub-Saharan Africa did not suffer greatly from Covid.

Neither did China. How stunning. It must be due to their fantastic public health systems.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by headsoup on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:14AM (#34137043)
Ah, it's a conspiracy when these countries 'do well' but everything you are told in the West is true huh?
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by noduerme on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:33AM (#34137158)
Even if everything stated in western journalism were complete lies, I don't see how that would make the reporting out of autocratic dictatorships any truer.
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by DiogenesKynikos on Monday December 26, 2022 @09:20AM (#34137767)
Do you know anyone in China? Just ask them what life was like for most of zero-CoVID. Most people didn't even know a single person who had gotten infected.

You don't have to arbitrarily trust some authority. Everyone in the country could see from their own experience that spread of the virus really was being effectively controlled.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by headsoup on Monday December 26, 2022 @10:55AM (#34138658)
Depends if you believe everything that comes out of a dictatorship is a lie. How untrue is it? We know it's under-reported, but who do you trust to find the truth?

The question is, do you think it is easier or harder to spot the lies of Western journalism, and what problems does that cause in forming a base to judge others?

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by noduerme on Monday December 26, 2022 @02:34PM (#34140970)
Pointing at flaws in Western journalism is a red herring. Using it as a whataboutist talking point is a favorite these days of dictatorships and their apologists.

No, it's not 'the question' whether it's easier or harder to spot the 'lies' of Western journalism. That has no bearing whatsoever on the obvious, cut and dry reason for the underreporting of covid deaths in China.

But it is worth pointing out that, unlike the "news" propaganda organs of dictatorships, Western journalism is in no sense a monolith that speaks with one voice. Not even mainstream media in the US speaks with one voice (because yes, Fox is the MSM too). So while it may require a bit more sophistication to pick out truths, it is at least not a one-sided distortion of history in favor of the rulers.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by headsoup on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:45PM (#34144012)
Pointing out flaws is a red herring?

No, finding the flaws in western journalism takes more effort because it's not as obvious. Which means the rulers can get away with propoganda and manipulation much more easily than one who provides a direct, complete and obvious propoganda.

I think people would be wise to be equally critical of left and right MSM, not just assume they aren't propoganda because they are on different 'sides' (hint, they're not really)

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by noduerme on Monday December 26, 2022 @09:54PM (#34144481)
It's a red herring because this article is about reported statistics from country to country. When the media in one relatively free country skews statistics, that is generally reported by opposition media in the same country and in other free countries abroad. Certainly it's right to point out that some "free" media has skewed statistics or parroted an establishment line about covid, and pointing it out is exactly what a free press is for. And if you read news from alternative and European and Latin American outlets as well, you can spot the biases of some MSM reporting in the US. But what is a red herring is pointing out MSM bias in the same breath as Chinese propaganda, presenting it in a context by which it is somehow meant to excuse the total top-down censorship of an unfree press. The attempt to draw draw that equivalence is the favorite tactic of dictatorships. It's not just a matter of detecting lies, but of exposing truth. For instance, the lab leak hypothesis would never have even been mentioned in an unfree press; to simply know that your government is lying via press manipulation only tells you that you don't know anything. It doesn't tell you what they're hiding from you. Yet the American press has shown itself free enough to expose these things, giving one the opportunity to determine what may or may not be true. That opportunity simply doesn't exist in the Chinese media ecosystem.
Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by DiogenesKynikos on Monday December 26, 2022 @09:16AM (#34137747)
China didn't suffer greatly (until now) because it didn't allow the virus to spread.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you keep the virus out of the country, you don't need great hospitals.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by chmars on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:33AM (#34137159)
Sub-Saharan Africa has of course also suffered greatly from SARS-CoV-2, they just have not the means to count their cases. SARS-CoV-2 does not behave differently in Africa than in other regions of the world, especially not in low-vaccination (or even no-vaccination) countries.

«Rather than an ‹African paradox,› the far simpler explanation is that COVID-19 has affected African countries just as the virus has everywhere else, but has gone undocumented.»

https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2022/morgue-data-reveal...

In countries with a younger population, less deaths from acute COVID-19 are expected, although the number of additional direct deaths from COVID-19 is still substantial. The disease burden burden, i.e., morbidity, also remains high, maybe even more given the sub-par health infrastructure.

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by chrisco255 on Monday December 26, 2022 @10:15AM (#34138227)
> Sub-Saharan Africa has of course also suffered greatly from SARS-CoV-2, they just have not the means to count their cases.

Of course they do. If they suffered dramatically from Covid, it would be documented, just as it was for Ebola, Malaria, etc.

> SARS-CoV-2 does not behave differently in Africa than in other regions of the world, especially not in low-vaccination (or even no-vaccination) countries.

The statistics for Covid are all over the map with regards to vaccine status [2].

Some countries with high mRNA distributions did well (Canada, Australia). Some countries with high mRNA distributions did not do well (Brazil, US, Russia, Italy, Cuba). Some countries with low mRNA distribution did well (sub-Saharan Africa, Haiti, DR, Jamaica, Egypt, Papa New Guinea) [1][2].

> In countries with a younger population, less deaths from acute COVID-19 are expected, although the number of additional direct deaths from COVID-19 is still substantial.

A lot of these countries are showing 50-100 excessive deaths per 100K. That's on par with a bad flu season. Sub-saharan Africa has suffered far worse disease outbreaks than Covid. And unlike Covid, diseases like Malaria affect children [3].

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations#what-share-of-... [2] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-... [3] https://ourworldindata.org/malaria-introduction

Re:Rogue antibody and mystery pathogen behind AstraZeneca bl... by chiefalchemist on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:59AM (#34136962)
It sounds more like India was devestated by selfishness and misguided priorities. Covid just happened to be there to take the blame.