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Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by skippyboxedhero on Saturday December 17, 2022 @02:03PM (#34030979)
The problem with Blair was that he lost the right on EU/immigration and lost the left on everything else.

Brownites sound good but say nothing specific...often the specific stuff is bad too. I agree with you in that there is a route in the centre, but Labour aren't. The party is fundamentally broken. Starmer isn't it, Reeves isn't a leader, Streeting is a joke. Obviously, they have moved to the centre on immigration and crime but...the party are just mad, and it doesn't seem authentic at all (Starmer was a human rights lawyer, getting rid of ECHR is the only course...you would have to be an idiot to believe he would do that, it just isn't credible).

The ambiguity of Labour is causing part of these problems. For example, their position of ambiguity on healthcare...clearly, it is broken...but they decide to be ambiguous (again, classic Brown) so their polling numbers stay up. There needs to be some kind of cross-party move towards reform but it is impossible when one side just wants to score points as the "protector of the NHS" (and it will end up with Labour winning, then finding out they are neck deep in trouble trying to do reforms that don't work...it will never be fixed).

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by mytailorisrich on Saturday December 17, 2022 @02:12PM (#34031081)
> The problem with Blair was that he lost the right on EU/immigration and lost the left on everything else

Yes, that's a good point, but not only the right. All the traditionally Labour constituencies in the North (bit not only) which voted for Brexit did so largely because of immigration.

Immigration control is not traditionally right wing only. The left has also been in favour of control and restrictions in order to protect workers' wages.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by astrange on Saturday December 17, 2022 @06:53PM (#34033537)
Their wages are low because they're British and live in a failing country.

Immigration raises wages; more people = better economy. That's why every other Anglo country is doing better than them. And has food that isn't brown slop.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by mytailorisrich on Sunday December 18, 2022 @03:04AM (#34035842)
No immigration has kept unskilled workers' wages low.

That's why businesses have been keen and workers have had enough.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by astrange on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:48AM (#34036831)
Immigration doesn’t lower wages. Telling people this usually doesn’t convince them because they just want an excuse to complain about immigrants, but nevertheless it’s true.

https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-immigration-doesnt-red...

In particular Australia’s population is 1/3rd immigrants. Australia’s minimum and median wages are both significantly higher than the UK. Does that mean there are so many immigrants they’re taking each others jobs instead?

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by mytailorisrich on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:08AM (#34036951)
There's a very big assumption in your claim, which is that immigration is balanced among 'social classes', skills, jobs,etc. In that case, indeed overall demand grows along with overall supply. Australia has an immigration system aimed at achieving that.

Things do not work out so great if immigration isn't balanced.

In the UK there has been a huge influx of unskilled or low skilled workers from Eastern Europe that has put a big dampener on wages at the low end of the spectrum.

One of the reasons the UK has a productivity issue is that cheap labour.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by astrange on Sunday December 18, 2022 @12:15PM (#34039790)
The papers I linked are empirical evidence, not assumptions. There’s two specifically on the UK that find no evidence of this.

They also find that skilled immigration systems don’t always work, because all immigrants tend to be unusually highly educated anyway, but also significantly downskill the jobs they choose after arriving. So you’d expect them to always compete with low end natives, but in fact they don’t because they mainly compete with other immigrants instead. And “compete” isn’t how labor works anyway, since all workers are also customers.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by mytailorisrich on Sunday December 18, 2022 @12:42PM (#34040105)
"Negative effect at low-end of spectrum", which is what I wrote...

> because all immigrants tend to be unusually highly educated anyway

That's obviously not true.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by petesergeant on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:41PM (#34032539)
> Blair ... lost the right on EU/immigration and lost the left on everything else

Blair won outright majorities in the three elections he lead Labour in

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by midasuni on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:14PM (#34032834)
You can say a lot of things about Blair, but “Lost” isn’t one of them.
Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by akiselev on Saturday December 17, 2022 @06:05PM (#34033212)
At this point UK government services don’t need reform, they need funding. Austerity has absolutely crippled everything.
Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by Silhouette on Saturday December 17, 2022 @07:34PM (#34033816)
The problem with that argument is where the money comes from. If you look at government tax take relative to GDP we aren't paying in much less tax than at any other time in most of our living memories. If anything it is the other way around.

We'd all like public services that do everything for everyone but few of us would be willing to pay what that would actually cost and many of us literally couldn't afford it. Meanwhile expectations of government services are rising and in many areas demographics are against us. If you rule out reform of government services then you don't have a lot of options left to square a lot of circles.

It's important to consider that "reform" is not the same as "cutting standards". For example if we could redistribute the available resources for health and social care to focus more on prevention than cure then many problems might be detected and dealt with earlier resulting in lower overall costs and crucially also better outcomes for patients. Of course there is so much firefighting happening in the NHS now that it's hard to see how any radical reform could happen without a huge injection of both cash and trained medical staff over a period longer than a single electoral cycle and that makes it a political problem as much as an economic or healthcare one.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by gghhzzgghhzz on Saturday December 17, 2022 @07:48PM (#34033903)
The NHS has been in continuous reform. Thatcher / Blair / Brown / Lansley / Hunt.

Most of these reforms have included injecting private sector and internal markets into the system.

You may agree or disagree with these reforms, but it's difficult to argue that they don't incur overhead. Outsourced contracts need administration, legal frameworks; private parties take profit or else they wouldn't exist.

I'd argue it is likely that most of the extra funding is seeping out through these reforms, plus the legacy of not nationalising the whole health system - GP surgeries, pharmacy, generic drug manufacturing - when the NHS was formed.

I agree with you on the prevention aspect. but my thought is that a more joined up system including GPs, pharmacy and especially social care, would manage a lot of lifestyle related issues much better.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by Silhouette on Saturday December 17, 2022 @09:23PM (#34034474)
I expect you're right about all of this. The famous "joined up thinking" at a national scale across a whole government is frequently what is missing. Sometimes it's missing within "only" one area such as health and social care but that area alone is already huge and almost unbelievably complicated to run.

There are probably a lot of real costs in our current healthcare system that never make it onto the books as well. For example in many parts of the country it is impossible for an adult to register with a dentist as an NHS patient right now. There are zero dental practices within a reasonable distance of many people willing to accept new NHS patients. That appears to be because the deal governments currently offer to NHS dentists makes no sense financially so it's hard to blame the dentists. But the effect is the same - many of those people are not getting regular dental check ups and preventative or early treatments. The ones who are went private and paid themselves.

That's money going into private healthcare not from the tax man but from the individual patient but that still means the individual patient no longer has that money to be able to afford higher taxes that could better fund the NHS. Unfortunately the lack of huge public outcry as this frog has been boiled only proves that a government strategy of slowly eroding even essential healthcare provision to encourage privatisation by the back door can be effective.

Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by alvah on Saturday December 17, 2022 @11:47PM (#34035133)
The NHS is the largest employer in Europe. 1.7 million employees for 141,000 beds. I believe it is fundamentally irreformable, but clearly it needs reform.
Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by DanBC on Friday December 23, 2022 @07:32AM (#34105097)
The vast majority of healthcare is provided to outpatients so numbers of staff to beds is a fucking weird ratio to look at.
Re:The strange case of Britain’s demise by alvah on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:53AM (#34136218)
You’re absolutely correct, the largest bureaucracy in Europe definitely doesn’t waste any money. What ratio would be less fucking weird?