News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by avian on Thursday December 15, 2022 @06:39AM (#33998037)
> It will also lead to questions about the copyright of the resulting models

I'm sure there will be no questions there.

The questions about the copyright of models like DALL-E, Stable Diffusion, etc. exist solely because it infringes on the rights of thousands of random artists all around the world. There is no one single entity with enough power to clearly oppose it so people making the models can get away with "questionable copyright", "legal gray area", etc. kind of talk.

Try the same with a model trained on a single movie created by a multinational with infinite money and all this will be resolved and defined real quick and strongly worded cease & desist letters sent out by end of work day.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by sandworm101 on Thursday December 15, 2022 @06:52AM (#33998139)
The day after movie-to-VR becomes easy to do, movie owners will monitize it, which will end the current free-for-all. Want to walk around The Shire in VR? You better have paid for the Hobbits Online subscription package.
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by zimpenfish on Thursday December 15, 2022 @09:43AM (#34000215)
Sam: This is it.

Frodo: What?

Sam: If I take one more step, I'll be the farthest away from home I've ever been.

Popup: And you can do that for just $29.99 when you buy The Hobbits Shire Expansion DLC!

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday December 15, 2022 @09:58AM (#34000498)
> The day after movie-to-VR becomes easy to do, movie owners will monitize it, which will end the current free-for-all.

The movie making studios already own those 3d "digital assets" from their films. IDK if there is a real "free-for-all" right now, but the monetisation play has already been planned for.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by sfifs on Thursday December 15, 2022 @07:36AM (#33998557)
> There is no one single entity with enough power to clearly oppose it so people making the models can get away with "questionable copyright", "legal gray area", etc. kind of talk.

Never underestimate the power of a sufficiently motivated rich individual to create legal hell (see Gawker). There are many very rich artists. There just needs to be an obvious large enough irritant which will happen as these generative models start getting used beyond toy amusements. The class action lawsuit against Copilot was filed just as pricing models started.

This is going to be an interesting area to watch. Use in commercial projects at your own risk of exposure to liability.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by worldsayshi on Thursday December 15, 2022 @07:46AM (#33998685)
The wrong and easy reaction to this is to limit these services to not include copyrighted content. The more right and really really difficult solution would be to give the original copyright holders partial rights to the output.

It really feels like the textile factory worker problem all over again. We can't let the big players be the benefactors every time.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by astrange on Thursday December 15, 2022 @08:28AM (#33999185)
> The more right and really really difficult solution would be to give the original copyright holders partial rights to the output.

That is impossible (assigning credit to training images from the output is arbitrary, not deterministic) and wouldn't help anyone (imagine Spotify except it pays you even less).

> It really feels like the textile factory worker problem all over again. We can't let the big players be the benefactors every time.

Industrialization is better for society because it produces more customer surplus. Even Marx thought the Luddites were wrong.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by worldsayshi on Thursday December 15, 2022 @06:00PM (#34007029)
>Industrialization is better for society because it produces more customer surplus.

Also my point.

>Even Marx thought the Luddites were wrong.

Sure they are wrong in that they confuse what the problem is. If workers owned the factory they would be happy to automate the work. But their feeling of being left out has some validity because if they weren't the total value would improve.

The real issue is that the revenue brought back through automation doesn't benefit the worker. If it did, the automation would happen sooner because incentives would align better and the total value for society would thus likely improve faster.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by Tepix on Thursday December 15, 2022 @07:39AM (#33998595)
What if you train your AI model with three dozen films about ancient egypt and then generate a new 3d world out using the model? Seems fuzzy.

But what if you use only three films? Or two?

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by me551ah on Thursday December 15, 2022 @08:14AM (#33999015)
I think it would be the other way around. A lot of movies(and tv shows) have games these days. You can already experience Star Wars in VR with “Star Wars Squadrons” and I’m sure we will start to see a lot more games with VR support in the future, many being based on Movies. MNCs are there to make money and they will just license it.
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by astrange on Thursday December 15, 2022 @08:25AM (#33999151)
> people making the models can get away with "questionable copyright", "legal gray area", etc. kind of talk.

Where are they saying that? Nobody thinks it's a gray area, they think it's explicitly legal and they're probably right too. Claiming it's a copyright violation is actually a rather weak case artists are just saying is obvious.

Microsoft has licensed DALL-E. They're not venturing into legal gray areas.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by mejutoco on Thursday December 15, 2022 @08:36AM (#33999283)
Well, I think it is a grey area.

The argument I heard most often goes along the lines of: "people also learn from a lot of examples and other artists, and that is not copyrighted".

It is an interesting argument, but AI is not people and the argument could easily be the opposite (not taking sides here). They might think it is legal, but it is far from clear, IMHO.

IANAL, but it will be interesting to see if this is enforceable and by whom.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by zimpenfish on Thursday December 15, 2022 @09:41AM (#34000176)
> Microsoft [...] not venturing into legal gray areas.

Their history as litigation defendants would suggest your optimism may perhaps be unfounded.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by concordDance on Thursday December 15, 2022 @08:38AM (#33999301)
> The questions about the copyright of models like DALL-E, Stable Diffusion, etc. exist solely because it infringes on the rights of thousands of random artists all around the world

How does it infringe? Are your memories of a movie copyright infringement?

https://youtu.be/IFe9wiDfb0E

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by Ajedi32 on Thursday December 15, 2022 @09:38AM (#34000122)
Not normally, but if you use those memories to re-create the movie and sell it to someone else then yeah, that's totally copyright infringement.
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by luma on Thursday December 15, 2022 @10:00AM (#34000524)
If I am an artist and I go to art school, I'm going to spend years studying the masters to learn their techniques and style. If I then produce an impressionist portrait on canvass, informed and influenced by the years of study of existing works.... am I violating copyright?
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by Ajedi32 on Thursday December 15, 2022 @10:23AM (#34000882)
If you're creating new works inspired by copyrighted works, no that's not (or should not be) copyright infringement. If you're creating exact reproductions of copyrighted works (e.g. The Gates of Argonath from Peter Jackson's adaptation of Lord of the Rings), just in a different format (3d instead of 2d) then yeah, that probably is.
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by bscphil on Thursday December 15, 2022 @04:33PM (#34006080)
Right. Most of the conversations about IP on this site seem to rely on extremely abstract reasoning or idealist thinking about what constitutes "property" or what a "copy" is. My understanding is that judges are not so easily misled. If you are selling a "replica statue of two kings" online that is clearly intended to resemble the Gates of Argonath, you are setting yourself up for a lawsuit. It doesn't matter if you built it from your memory of the LOTR films, used an AI to generate a bunch of similar looking statues and picked the ones most similar to the films, or what have you. In practice any judge will see that you are attempting to make money off of the LOTR IP. (Note: not legal advice.)

Note that this doesn't mean that Stable Diffusion (and friends) are copyright infringing just because they're trained on copyrighted material. My brain doesn't infringe the LOTR copyright because of my memories of the films. If I turn my experience of fantasy epics into a new novel with a different storyline than LOTR, that's not copyright infringement. That's creativity. But those same memories can likewise be used to make works that are infringing. The question of infringement isn't in the creative act, it's in the artifact. I think it's plausible (though not certain of course) that IP questions will be settled for AIs in the same way: it's not infringement to train your AI on copyrighted material. It is infringement to use your AI to generate works that a reasonable person would conclude are intended to replicate or imitate copyrighted material.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by nextaccountic on Thursday December 15, 2022 @10:53PM (#34009895)
> it's not infringement to train your AI on copyrighted material.

If that's the case, it should probably should be codified in law. Copyright has a lot of exceptions, and if the existence of AI models trained with copyrighted data are in public interest then it could be an exception too, but this should not be up to the courts.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by staticman2 on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:54AM (#34013080)
"My brain doesn't infringe the LOTR copyright because of my memories of the films. "

I guess you can pirate Lord of the Rings on bitorrent all you want then? Cause computers are just a bunch of brains remembering things?

This is not a winning legal argument. However this is resolved, no court is going to treat an intentionally designed piece of computer software as a "brain". Or the machine storage of information as equivilent to a human being's "memory".

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by bscphil on Friday December 16, 2022 @12:15PM (#34017195)
I didn't say that? The act of piracy is an act of copyright infringement. The act of watching a legally owned copy of LOTR until my brain remembers almost every single detail down to the smallest element is not copyright infringement, obviously. I don't see how piracy is relevant here at all.

Obviously if OpenAI or other AI researchers are committing media piracy as part of their research, that is something they're legally liable for. It doesn't mean that their AI "remembering" it is inherently infringing.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by staticman2 on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:43PM (#34020087)
My point is the brain metaphor does not work. The copyright act does not regulate "brains" but it does regulate software so what your brain remembers or does not remember is irrelevant.

I predict A.I. trained on LOTR will be found to be infringing because it's a derivative work unless the court determines that use of the original work constitutes a fair use.

My general point in my intentionally silly brain metaphor is brain metaphors are inapplicable and unconvincing.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by bscphil on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:42PM (#34020863)
> I predict A.I. trained on LOTR will be found to be infringing because it's a derivative work unless the court determines that use of the original work constitutes a fair use.

Okay, but that's just a prediction, not an argument. I don't agree with the prediction. I think it makes some sense to think about the AI training data on analogy with memories, because they contain impressions of a thing without being able to reproduce it exactly. They can both be the source of both real creativity as well as the source of infringing works.

I don't see an argument for considering the training data produced by AI training a derivative work, at least not in any copyrightable sense. ChatGPT is "software"; the training data that it operates on is not "software" in the strictest sense and exists in an uncomfortable middle space at present with respect to copyright law. That's what the memory analogy is supposed to show: just like human memories aren't subject to copyright, AI training data that is similar in structure and capabilities to human memories is likewise not subject to copyright. More precisely, my point is that that's one entirely reasonable way courts could rule: AI training data represents "fair use" of its sources (provided they are legally obtained of course), but the products of an AI trained on those sources might not be.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by staticman2 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @08:52PM (#34034294)
A court isn't going to anthropomorphise computers, as you are, doing to settle the issue. It's just sloppy thinking IMHO.

It also has no precedent in it's favor. As far as I know no court has ever used "Is it like a brain?" to settle a copyright issue.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by burkaman on Thursday December 15, 2022 @10:27AM (#34000954)
No, because it took years of study and producing a new portrait will take weeks. If you were able to study a master's entire portfolio in a matter of hours and then instantaneously generate 10,000 portraits in their distinct style, yes that would be unethical. I don't know enough about copyright to say if it would be illegal and I don't think that's a particularly interesting topic.
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by chrischen on Thursday December 15, 2022 @11:53AM (#34002293)
You just described some pretty amazing technology that can quite possibly move the human race forward and I’m surprised your first thought is that it is unethical. New technology often displaces old methodologies by disruption. It is not unethical to disrupt, but it may be unethical to let those people be disrupted without compensation, which is where I feel a lot of the anti-technology sentiment comes from.

As a society we ask people to branch out into various expertise… through no fault of their own maybe someone’s expertise is randomly obsoleted by a new technology. Just as copyright laws incentivize new creations, we as a society should incentivize people to embrace new disrupting technologies by safety-netting those displaced by them since it’s a gamble more or less of who is next to be displaced.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by luma on Friday December 16, 2022 @08:21AM (#34014223)
So your primary complaint here is the amount of time it took? Why shouldn't a bike be illegal as it allows you to go places in weeks that used to take years?
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by Mindwipe on Thursday December 15, 2022 @10:26AM (#34000940)
If you're influenced no.

If you build your own replica of the bridge of the Enterprise, then yes.

This is pretty settled law.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by jerf on Thursday December 15, 2022 @10:30AM (#34001025)
I do enjoy that video, but also, despite my deep cynicism about copyright, I can't help but think this is not in any risk of happening. If you trace the economics it makes no sense. Why would a creator make a thing, then sell you the experience of that thing, then be upset that you have memories of the experience of that thing? If they do try to claw it back in an era where memory editation is possible, why would anybody shell out any money to have an experience if they won't be allowed to remember it tomorrow? Why would I use copyright law to prevent word-of-mouth marketing, the most powerful form of marketing there is?

The point of copyright in general is to protect the economic value for the producer. Being so grabby about "IP rights" that they literally claw back the experience of consuming it means that the economic value of the IP drops to zero. It only has value in the context of being consumed, remembered, etc., and where the person purchasing the experience has confidence that such a thing will be allowed.

I suppose hypothetical future simulated humans could be shaped and molded until they give up some real value for an "experience" they won't be allowed to remember tomorrow, but by then they have passed so far beyond what is "human" that I have no further guesses what they may act like. (That's the true meaning of the "singularity" term, not any particular future, but the point at which our predictions are meaningless.)

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by chrischen on Thursday December 15, 2022 @11:44AM (#34002175)
I’d like to add that all creative work stands on the shoulders of predecessors by being trained and based on (even if indirectly influenced) previous works. This really is unavoidable on a human level because we can only do what we see and experience.
Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by moron4hire on Thursday December 15, 2022 @09:04AM (#33999613)
The copyright protected material isn't in the model. This can be figured out easily because, if they did, the models are so much smaller than the input data that it'd be literal unobtanium for compression algorithms.

Copyright also has nothing to do with the tool.

What a piece depicts and how it is used are much more important than how a piece was created. If I paint a picture by hand of a particular scene from a Disney movie, that's clearly a derived work and may be subject to copyright protection (it depends, there could be a fair use argument in specific situations, so even "it's copyright!" is not a cut-and-dried argument). If I paint a picture of Hercules in the style of Disney, that's trademark violation. But I can paint Hercules in any other style and Disney can't say shit (though they certainly try).

This is an age-old argument. Some artists think they should have a monopoly on certain ideas. As a society, we've already said no, you only get to own your expression of your ideas.

And as ideas go, "like a trending artist on ArtStation" isn't a particularly strong one.

Re:The Gates of Argonath from the LotR in VR 50 FPS Using UE5.1 by joshspankit on Friday December 16, 2022 @07:46AM (#34013952)
I think it would be almost trivial to build in a “generate 30% different than” (the legal amount of difference before a work is considered different than the original). That could either sidestep the entire legal question, or throw Hollywood in to a blender since so many movies/shows have been made on the back of that difference.