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Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by SaintGhurka on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:45PM (#33991822)
I have a Casio 101 keyboard that I bought in 1987 and a $15 MIDI-to-USB cable. It's hard to describe how satisfying it is to see it continue to work as an input device for a computer manufactured in 2022.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by abruzzi on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:29PM (#33992402)
I love that a protocol from 1983 is still in very active use. Either it was very well thought out, or the userbase has very limited needs. (actually a little of both.)
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by brudgers on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:50PM (#33992691)
It is also the domain is limited. I mean a piano only has 88 keys and a few pedals and there are maybe 8 octaves or so in Common Practice.

And MIDI also has SYSEX to handle arbitrary data.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by cramjabsyn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:00PM (#33994080)
And CCs to handle faders and knobs. And PC to handle patch recall. And separate rx/tx busses. And ability to carry clock. And support for 16 simultaneous channels. Yeah it’s actually really well thought out I’d say
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by adw on Thursday December 15, 2022 @12:39AM (#33995699)
Dave Smith, may he rest in peace, and Ikutaro Kakehashi deserve all of the flowers.

https://www.grammy.com/news/technical-grammy-award-ikutaro-k...

Dave was a brilliant designer, both analogue and digital, but not so great a businessperson; his company, Sequential, who made some of the most beloved electronic instruments - not least the Prophet series - went bankrupt and Yamaha bought the name. Dave went to work for Yamaha and Korg, and then Seer Systems, where he designed the first ever “soft synth” (professional-standard PC synthesiser plugin), Reality. He had all of the acclaim, and I’m sure he did OK, but he did not have the financial success the quality of his work deserved.

Nevertheless, he then founded Dave Smith Instruments, maybe the start of the analogue synth revival (which is going gangbusters now; Eurorack is the coolest hardware hacking scene on the planet). DSi did pretty well, which was great, but here’s what really reveals how beloved Dave was; his old friend Ikutaro had a word with his friend, the president of Yamaha, and more or less asked; “we all love Dave. You’re not using the Sequential name. How about it?” and Yamaha went… “you, know, yeah” and gave him the Sequential name - which still had significant brand equity - for free.

Seriously: https://www.sequential.com/2015/01/sequential-back/

> Instrumental in restoring the Sequential name was Roland’s Founder, Ikutaro Kakehashi, a longtime colleague and friend of Smith’s. “I feel that it’s important to get rid of unnecessary conflict among electronic musical instrument companies,” said Kakehashi. “That is exactly the spirit of MIDI. For this reason, I personally recommended that the President of Yamaha, Mr. Nakata, return the rights to the Sequential name to Dave Smith. And I’m glad to see such a wonderful result—a new product with the Sequential name.”

And in 2021, he sold now-Sequential again under much happier circumstances; $24m to the well-regarded British gear manufacturer Focusrite.

The music gear industry has more than its share of villains - google Uli Behringer sometime - but Dave and Ikutaro were real ones, and the best parts of the industry (including the big Japanese manufacturers, Korg, Roland/Boss, and Yamaha) move in their spirit. And a large part of that is because of the existence of MIDI.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by mjr00 on Thursday December 15, 2022 @01:12AM (#33995914)
> It is also the domain is limited. I mean a piano only has 88 keys and a few pedals and there are maybe 8 octaves or so in Common Practice.

Yeah but MIDI works for so much more than a piano. People use MIDI to program drum VSTs, guitar VSTs, entire orchestras, guzheng VSTs... basically anything musical.

That being said, it's serviceable but not great for a lot of these things, because originally it was meant just for keyboard-controlled synthesizers. The biggest flaw (IMO) is lack of standardization for individual instruments with more varied playing styles and articulations than the piano. As a basic example, for guitar VSTs, if you want to switch between sustain notes and palm mutes, you generally have to play an out-of-range note (a "keyswitch") to alter the articulation. However this keyswitch is different for Ample Sound, Shreddage, Native Instruments guitar libraries, etc. Similarly if you want to slide between notes, some VSTs just let you overlap the note while others make you use a slide keyswitch. Every VST has its own way of MIDI programming that isn't transferrable.

It's like switching between programming languages, except you're building a single program where it uses multiple languages at once in the same file and you have to remember if the current language syntax you're writing uses `elif`, `else if` or is LISP. (I have reference manuals for most VSTs I own bookmarked for this reason.)

The fact that MIDI continues to be used today is, more than anything, the result of "perfect is the enemy of done" IMO. You could redesign something better than MIDI from the ground up, but since everything already supports MIDI there's little motivation when it already works well enough.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by brudgers on Thursday December 15, 2022 @02:34AM (#33996389)
Sorry for not being clear, I used the number of piano keys as an example of how limited the domain is. MIDI wasn’t designed to express ranges with 100’s or 1000’s of values. Twelve tone equal temperament is good enough and technology is not going to extend human hearing another four octaves.

What MIDI really got right is flexibility with regard to timbre. The standard was so open that General MIDI only came along later to establish some consistency for timbres.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by klodolph on Thursday December 15, 2022 @06:10PM (#34007129)
MIDI doesn’t force you to use 12TET anyway. You can use MTS. Support seems widespread, at least among the equipment and software I use, some of it dating back to the 1980s.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by brudgers on Friday December 16, 2022 @02:13AM (#34011649)
The midi spec does not have provisions for microtonal music, nor does it have a provision for tuning.

The context in which I was writing was the previous comments, not your experience.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by klodolph on Friday December 16, 2022 @11:42AM (#34016679)
> The midi spec does not have provisions for microtonal music, nor does it have a provision for tuning.

Maybe I wasn't clear when I said "you can use MTS" and "support seems widespread".

It's not part of the base MIDI standard, but it is standardized.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_tuning_standard

MTS is how you specify how MIDI notes are translated to frequencies, if you desire. You can use it to specify alternative scales, if you desire. The Wikipedia list of hardware and software which supports MTS seems very conservative IMO... my personal experience is that MTS support is reasonably common.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by brudgers on Friday December 16, 2022 @01:16PM (#34018042)
It's not part of the base MIDI standard

That’s what I said and what I meant. The Venn diagram of disagreement with me congrues with the Venn diagram of self disagreement.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by xdfgh1112 on Thursday December 15, 2022 @03:17AM (#33996640)
MIDI 2.0 is already a thing but you're right, nobody is adopting it.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by bzzzt on Thursday December 15, 2022 @03:52AM (#33996885)
The MIDI 2.0 spec was released in 2020 and is being adopted but that will take time. Think how long it takes for a new USB generation to be widespread and multiply by 5 (people are not buying a new piano or synthesizer every 3 years like they do with a laptop or other digital device)

Maybe there's a market in retrofitting old synthesizers like the kits available for some pre-MIDI classics ;)

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by SeanLuke on Thursday December 15, 2022 @07:09PM (#34007686)
I'm fairly confident that MIDI 2.0 is already dead. I really don't like to say that.

It was designed by a large industrial committee, in secret, with no transparency and no input from other interested parties. The opposite of MIDI 1.0. And it just stinks of it. It is overwrought by a long shot, with many bells and whistles nobody is asking for (there's a very specific, and frankly short, list of critical MIDI failings). It has no reference examples and will be awful to implement and to deploy over various transports. When it came out it went over like a lead balloon: nobody seems to want to implement it.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by xdfgh1112 on Friday December 16, 2022 @02:42AM (#34011902)
My Roland FA-08 supports MIDI 2.0 apparently. That's like 8 years old now. Weird that the spec wasn't finished until 2020
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by ls15 on Thursday December 15, 2022 @01:29AM (#33996019)
Controllers should have a higher resolution. With only 128 values, filter sweeps have ugly gaps.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by bzzzt on Thursday December 15, 2022 @03:52AM (#33996889)
Your 'ugly gap' is another man's 'characterful sound'.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by ls15 on Friday December 16, 2022 @06:24AM (#34013318)
True, of course. :)
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by rewgs on Thursday December 15, 2022 @03:37PM (#34005370)
This is not an issue. Source: I am a professional composer.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by klodolph on Thursday December 15, 2022 @06:06PM (#34007096)
Maybe you are not affected by it. I occasionally find it frustrating, in various scenarios… very slow sweeps by hand, or things like that. I only have problems with the limitation in certain scenarios with electronic sounds. It’s never a problem with sample libraries.

MIDI has 14-value CCs anyway, it’s just that few controllers generate the messages. I don’t k ow how many synths respond to them.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by ls15 on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:38AM (#34012267)
Composers are not really affected by this. Sound engineers are.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by rewgs on Friday December 16, 2022 @11:57AM (#34016913)
Should have been more clear. Professional film/TV/game composer. By definition we are producers and audio engineers as well.

And yes it truly isn’t a problem, as plugin developers have long since interpolated the 128 steps. If it were a problem, you’d be hearing choppy sweeps in every song and film score out there.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by ls15 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @12:01AM (#34024892)
> And yes it truly isn’t a problem, as plugin developers have long since interpolated the 128 steps.

That's the point. It is not an issue for you, because it has been solved in certain receiving software that you use. That does not mean that the issue does not exist, but that it can be mitigated if you use software that allows that and smoothes the sweeps.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by bluenomatterwho on Thursday December 15, 2022 @08:24PM (#34008307)
I don't know about 'ugly gaps' but its night and day compared to moving an analog knob with CV. Professional Composer guy may not have an issue. Perhaps indeed they are prolific in their marvelous, professional compositions (perhaps using CV)... but the limited expression of 128 steps is obvious to me. Source: I make techno.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by a9h74j on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:04PM (#33992854)
If they had used a more common baud rate, I wonder if there would be so many poorly done "extensions" that it would not be in active use.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by SeanLuke on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:21PM (#33993041)
The baud rate chosen was extremely well thought out compared to the crazytalk that are standard serial port baud rates.

Specifically, the rate was 31250 bps. Why? Because the huge majority of synthesizer processors at the time had clocks that ran at 1 MHz or integer multiples thereof. Indeed that is still the case forty years later. Ask yourself what 31250 * 32 is.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by spookie on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:59PM (#33994575)
This is incredible
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday December 15, 2022 @12:16AM (#33995530)
1,000,000
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by malthaus on Thursday December 15, 2022 @05:22AM (#33997504)
It is on one hand but it's also a PITA that holds back innovation and troubles its users with work-arounds.

It's time for a proper new standard using modern capabilities both for audio and control signal transport but it's a very heterogeneous market with tons of legacy, therefore almost impossible to achieve.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by psychomugs on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:08PM (#33994154)
Is there any such standard that’s been supported for so long?
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by russellbeattie on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @10:55PM (#33995017)
You know how modern 3D printers and CNC machines use "G-code" instructions to specify their movement? I learned this tidbit literally yesterday:

The first implementation of a numerical control programming language was developed at the MIT Servomechanisms Laboratory in the late 1950s... The main standardized version used in the United States was settled by the Electronic Industries Alliance in the early 1960s. A final revision was approved in February 1980 as RS-274-D.

So yeah. Remember what Gibson said about the future...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-code

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by kristopolous on Thursday December 15, 2022 @12:09AM (#33995479)
Things are far more connected than you think.

Check out the Example section for the 1964 RUNOFF document editor. You might see some familiar things

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TYPSET_and_RUNOFF

Also communication protocols have pretty long lifespans. Take https://www.kermitproject.org/ for example or the wire standard for Ethernet

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by frosted-flakes on Thursday December 15, 2022 @12:29AM (#33995618)
1/4" and 1/8" (3.5mm) analogue audio jacks have had a very, very long life, from as far back as the 1890s. A year or two ago when I found my mother using with her iPhone an ancient single-ear mono headphone that probably came with a cassette player in the 80s, which struck me as quite funny. Still works fine.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by DocTomoe on Thursday December 15, 2022 @03:12AM (#33996606)
Just google why the Space Shuttle/SLS SRB were the size they are. Hint: It has to do with Roman war chariots.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by liotier on Thursday December 15, 2022 @05:19AM (#33997489)
It has to do with ass width.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by lproven on Thursday December 15, 2022 @06:32AM (#33997974)
It's an urban legend.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/

Basically there are loads of different railway gauges around the world, and indeed, inside the USA itself, which historically had no single standard size.

All roads, railways, and thus tunnels and bridges everywhere are very approximately multiples of the width of a horse's pectoral/pelvic girdles. Nothing especially Roman or anything else about it.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by russellbeattie on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @10:26PM (#33994771)
The fact that MIDI 2.0 was only released in 2020 is mind boggling. It was just really well designed and implemented from the beginning.

I remember the first time I saw MIDI in action: I was in a mall in the mid-to-late 1980s and ComputerLand had a full sized keyboard hooked up to an Apple IIgs, which was playing The Entertainer while the notes scrolled across the screen on a color display. The real piano sound that came out was piped through some great speakers and I thought it was the most amazing technology I had ever seen. Think about that for a second: That tech remained almost untouched for 35 years. Incredible.

1986: MIDI and the MUSICAL MICROS | BBC Archive: https://youtu.be/aADkqmvy44o

Related note: I recently found this video about making electronic dance music on an Amiga in the early 1990s and learned quite a lot about how music-techies back then we're geeking out. Super fun - I'm not a musician, so I honestly had no real idea what was possible back then.

https://youtu.be/6OaBkvwx7Hw

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by adw on Thursday December 15, 2022 @12:46AM (#33995744)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDn7ZDcx9w0 is great (in the same vein).

No-one uses MIDI 2.0 yet, we don’t need it! MPE (https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/midi-polyphonic-expressio...) is only just being adopted (with poly aftertouch instruments and keybeds like the ones in the ASM Hydrasynth).

MIDI has proved amazingly resilient, whether over 5-pin DIN, the increasingly common TRS 1/4” jacks (common on Eurorack or guitar pedals, where space is a premium) or the utterly ubiquitous MIDI over USB. (And ethernet, can’t forget that). Everything digitally controlled speaks MIDI - and not just music, the stage lighting world is all MIDI too. I think that there is a real case that it’s the second most successful wired physical-layer protocol behind Ethernet.

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by womod on Thursday December 15, 2022 @03:51AM (#33996880)
A good number of stage lighting controllers have the ability to interface with and handle MIDI, but the vast majority of stage lighting equipment is controlled using DMX[1]. The two have a lot in common, being pretty much ubiquitous and rock-solid even given their age.

[1] - http://www.dmx-512.com/dmx-protocol/dmx-protocol-basics/

Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by cschmittiey on Thursday December 15, 2022 @06:13AM (#33997827)
I think it’s likely they were confused also by the physical connector - DMX can and often does use the same 5 pin connector as MIDI, if I’m not mistaken.
Re:You can hook your MIDI keyboard up to a website with Fire... by adw on Saturday December 17, 2022 @08:48PM (#34034271)
Nah, I was just wrong :-) I know a lot of big touring productions drive lighting and patch changes off the same clock (usually a laptop which provides time code, possibly backing tracks, and possibly patch changes for effects and synths), and misremembered that lighting typically used a different protocol even if it’s the same program driving everything.