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Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by pmarreck on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @12:55AM (#33980450)
The truth is reversed. Software eliminates work; that is, it makes people more productive by making the boring parts of their jobs automated, which as a side effect can increase capital (and profit everyone, not just startup founders). The diatribe against capitalism is thus unnecessary.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by SQueeeeeL on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @01:32AM (#33980680)
>which as a side effect can increase capital (and profit everyone, not just startup founders)

We haven't seen any meaningful increase in real earnings in the last 50 years, despite massive increases in productivity. In America, go to any city and you'll see a massive number of homeless people, those individuals have not magically captured any of the productivity gains of the 21st century, in fact they're probably unemployed because the low skill job that would've existed now has been automated.

Trickle down economics is such a farcical scam made by those who benefit from it, it makes me unironically proud of my country's propaganda machine that people are drinking the neoliberal gospel so hard, it'll make the next few decades a lot funnier.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by ciphol on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @04:15AM (#33981507)
> We haven't seen any meaningful increase in real earnings in the last 50 years

Who's "we"? The world as a whole has experienced rapidly growing real earnings throughout the last 50 years. Real earnings worldwide have doubled since 2001 alone! [1] Of course, most of the growth has happened in developing countries (where, honestly, it's most needed) rather than in rich countries where you and I live. But even in rich countries real earnings are rising, just more slowly. [2]

> In America, go to any city and you'll see a massive number of homeless people

Only in the rich cities, not in poor rural areas. And that's because homelessness is a result almost solely of high housing prices due to political building restrictions, not low incomes (or mental illness or drug use). [3] Increasing incomes won't actually decrease homelessness significantly - higher income just means housing prices will have to rise higher before poor-er people are forced out. The same number of people will be forced out either way, because a fixed number of housing units can accommodate a roughly fixed number of people, meaning that everyone additional person has to leave.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-median-income?tab=c... [2] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-median-income?tab=c... [3] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/01/homeles...

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by baandang on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @08:40AM (#33983291)
The irony is that the pejorative phrase "Trickle down economics" was pure propaganda. Incredibly effective propaganda considering you are repeating it back like a stochastic parrot decades later.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by latency-guy2 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:14AM (#33981172)
The number of vagrants had been decreasing YoY from ~2000 to 2020. I think the effect you see in cities is an increased concentration of vagrants from numerous states and other cities into just a few. I do believe homeless population has generally increased over the last 2 years, so I won't belay this point any further.

Real dollars and wages have not increased a lot... for the average citizen, but has increased tremendously for those with more skills. Nevertheless, the average citizen does have more purchasing power compared to their rough equivalent ~50 years back. The main culprits of rising costs is healthcare, housing, and education. Housing has performed it's worst effect on the average American over the last 2 years, but before that was quite steady in relative cost to the average income. Food, entertainment, clothing, transportation, and communication are now much more affordable, inflation over the last 2 years has also put a dent into the relative cost to the average income, but nevertheless still better now than previous.

What solutions are there for the average American? Take advantage of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease, learn new skills and drive forth competition. Stagnant industries will have to adapt or they will die.

I don't think reality is quite so dire. There's not a lot that can convince me, I'm well aware of wage stagnation, I'm well aware of inflation YoY, I'm well aware that the average American is hurting quite a bit over the last 2 years. But in the long run, the average American is doing OK, and will be doing OK. Hopefully, OK turns into GOOD and thriving. Happy to be proven wrong though.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by subradios on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:24AM (#33980933)
"Real" earnings staying stagnant are a byproduct of inflation artifacts and certain non pay employee expenditures rising astronomically, notably the employer paid portion of health insurance. There's also the socialist or conservative refusal to build houses (depending on where you live).

Assuming you are US based, you will notice that the nationalized health services are slowly going bankrupt or worse, losing all their doctors. Even still, the per capita expenditure on health care in Western countries is an exponential. Giving credit to the nationalized systems, they managed to constrain it to perhaps n^1.6 instead of n^2, but it's still not a problem with "capitalism" directly, as it affects health systems with no meaningful concept of private business.

How does progressive thought deal with people wanting to spend enormous amounts of money on increasingly more advanced Healthcare as they age, and those costs being hidden such that nobody realizes how much money that is?

It appears that the American system has replicated the failures of communist planning - nobody know how much anything should cost!

Perhaps the nationalized systems were able to perform better, for a time due to having very smart people trying their best to work it out - but this even is starting to become unglued.

A proper progressive answer to this cannot be to nationalize more Healthcare, as that is failing the metric used to criticize the private system. More slowly, admittedly - but still failing.

If all talk about the way capital markets improve the world is the "neoliberal gospel", there needs to be an answer for these problems that don't rely on sovereign wealth funds or extremely creative central bank manipulation.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by randomdata on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:54AM (#33981401)
> We haven't seen any meaningful increase in real earnings in the last 50 years, despite massive increases in productivity.

It's funny how this is so widely recognized, yet at the same time we like to claim that college, which also started gaining in popularity 50 years ago, will increase your earnings...

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by resonious on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:32AM (#33980976)
As with most things I "know", I'm not sure what info to trust, but I'm currently under the impression that most of America's homeless population are homeless because they're hopelessly addicted to fentanyl and can't think straight.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by jjgreen on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:40AM (#33981918)
Have a go at sleeping rough, not washing, barely eating for 6 months, then refuse an offer of fentanyl. The causality is mostly the other way around.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by goatlover on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @11:33AM (#33985912)
I haven't seen a starving homeless person. There are soup kitchens and shelters in cities, along with charities and of course, a fair amount of pan handling.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by jjgreen on Thursday December 15, 2022 @08:08AM (#33998934)
Have a go at sleeping rough, not washing, and eating soup for 6 months, then refuse an offer of fentanyl ...
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by chefandy on Friday December 23, 2022 @07:21PM (#34112333)
Do you think soup kitchens/pantries offer 3 meals a day? Can't keep leftovers without refrigeration. Most don't even offer food every day let alone give enough to keep people not hungry.

There's an expansive gulf of misery before you hit the Christian Children's Fund commercial, 5yo w/rickets starvation. I assure you that you have absolutely no clue what it looks like and what you've seen hasn't told you what you think it has.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by chefandy on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:45AM (#33981039)
> As with most things I "know", I'm not sure what info to trust, but I'm currently under the impression that most of America's homeless population are homeless because they're hopelessly addicted to fentanyl and can't think straight.

Sure, drug addiction is a giant problem in the US, but you were correct to second guess your take. Reducing the most dire portion of the US's housing crisis to drug addiction is flabbergastingly reductive. You should start by trusting information from people who have meaningfully studied housing in the United States.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by galaxyLogic on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:42AM (#33981030)
And fentanyl comes from China, right? I don't get it how China's communist party can't enforce the law and stop fentanyl production.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by defrost on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:52AM (#33981078)
They dropped the hammer two years ago .. these days:

> Instead of finished fentanyl being shipped directly to the United States, most smuggling now takes place via Mexico.

> Mexican criminal groups source fentanyl precursors — and increasingly pre-precursors — from China, and then traffic finished fentanyl from Mexico to the United States.

it's hard to even get (direct) fentanyl precursors from China .. but those that have the knowledge in both India and Mexico can start further down the chain and get "pre - precursors" to produce fentanyl to smuggle into the US.

(2022) [1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/china-and-synthetic-drugs...

(2020) [2] https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-...

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by lmz on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:50AM (#33981068)
Why would they? Payback for the Opium Wars.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by rightbyte on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:57AM (#33981420)
Making the US pay for GB's wars? The crisis is fueled by the pharmacy industry, not some revenge.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by wizofaus on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:53PM (#33990394)
Sounds like the plot of some sort of dystopian sci-fi novel (as in, I'm pretty sure I've read one where that was more or less part of the plot, but can't remember what it was...I'm pretty sure it wasn't A Scanner Darkly at any rate)
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by galaxyLogic on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:45AM (#33981041)
I don't think software is capitalist or communist is it? Software is like steam-engines. Like you say it eliminates work, like steam-engines did.

Software is just a technology, which can be used for good and bad, like most things.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by namaria on Thursday December 15, 2022 @04:19AM (#33997069)
To nitpick, steam engine and software are products of technique. Technology is the exercise of understanding technique, i.e. this conversation is about technology. But I think we impoverish our language by calling everything related to technical development 'technology'.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by galaxyLogic on Friday December 16, 2022 @01:19PM (#34018078)
Good point about terminology.

But then what makes software special is that you can also encode "techniques" in it.

Thus the exercise of trying to understand a program is also "technology"? :-)

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by namaria on Sunday December 18, 2022 @04:07AM (#34036142)
Sure and biology is just wet physics. Vocabulary is not about set theory, it's about nuance.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by LesZedCB on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @12:58AM (#33980467)
> The diatribe against capitalism is thus unnecessary

that would be true if you had no understanding surplus value. i highly recommend you at least try and read the first few chapters of Marx's Capital, which was quoted directly in the article.

notice profits are skyrocketing while wages are dead? "rising tide raises all ships" economics is dead.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by cowl on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @04:30AM (#33981586)
The diatribe against capitalism is unnecessary because there is no better system. You can quote Marx's Capital all you want. I have lived the system build upon it's premises and it's the worst system possible. It destroys the human Initiative and intrinsic motivation bringing all the people to an equal poverty and apathy not an equal prosperity while the Ruling class still remains even better than the richest capitalist. And no what is often touted as it was never implemented properly is not true either. Half the world tried several forms of it's implementation, in all forms it goes against the human nature and is always destined to fail. There is no redistribution of the Surplus value simply because the surplus vanishes whenever you try that system.

While the rising tide is not raising all ships you at least have a chance to fight to jump to another ship and not being forced to navigate the ocean using rafts.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by modo_mario on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:59AM (#33982032)
I'd say it's still true that it was never implemented properly. The fact that you mention a ruling class should signify that. There was still a state, etc so it was never achieved.

That said I think it's a utopia and as such (just like many other anarchistic strains) in line with some of 'utopia's defintions it is impractical/impossible bs.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by cowl on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:07AM (#33983614)
A ruling class will come out no matter what. Who "redistributes" the wealth? even the most passionate advocates of this form have recognized this and now propose an overruling "AI" and the postponing of this organisation until we can have a "fair AI", Can you predict how even that form will go? And what's more important it does not change the equation that if my contribution results in the same reward as the person X contribution why should I strive to contribute more? It's the inevitable race to the least effort possible that is the doom of Marxist theories. If they say to you "Max you can achieve is X because that is the "Equality" of this society and you achieve X with Effort 2 you will not give effort 10.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by sgu999 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:54AM (#33984241)
> if my contribution results in the same reward as the person X contribution why should I strive to contribute more?

The nature of the reward matters, not everything is about wealth and money. Many geniuses are still willingly working in public labs for a fraction of what they'd earn in a corporate or startup.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by namaria on Thursday December 15, 2022 @04:20AM (#33997082)
Wealth is way more complex than 'take home money'. Geniuses in developed countries with highly functional infrastructure and high expectations of security are willing to forego cash income to work on ideals.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by LesZedCB on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:39PM (#33988984)
wealth "redistribution" only makes sense when property is protected a priori.

how do you "redistribute" wikipedia, creative commons, public domain, F/LOSS software? are all these domains a "race to the bottom of effort?"

you don't need to, it's already collectively publicly owned.

your perspective is terribly closed-minded. spend more time imagining something else other than assuming the predominant ideology is all that will ever exist and appealing to some fake "natural" order.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by seanw444 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @10:21AM (#33984655)
Commies use the "but that wasn't real communism" phrase all the time, but the point is that it will never be achieved. At least not for any substantial amount of time. It's utterly unnatural. Societal entropy returns it to a resting state every time.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by modo_mario on Friday December 16, 2022 @06:16AM (#34013251)
And I find it pretty easy to argue that but instead plenty of people try to argue to them referring to examples that they don't intend. Essentially arguing past em with neither party achieving anything. Like some people plainly believe for example china with it's loads of billionaires is a communist country and this is what these advocates want locally.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by rightbyte on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:30AM (#33982190)
> Half the world tried several forms of it's implementation

Kinda the same implementation though if you don't count boring social democrats to the block. It is probably fundamentally a really really bad idea with authoritarian rule and a central planning system, which is not self correcting and where the authoritarian regime won't admit errors or faults.

I wonder why coop corporations are not more common. They are essentially "socialist" on a micro scale. There have to be some big drawback.

I think agile has alot of these problems. In most environment it fails due to about the same reasons as it is a authoritarian ideology in practice.

Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by cowl on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:02AM (#33983558)
> I wonder why coop corporations are not more common. that's the same reason why state coops failed everywhere. because they are forced to work toward some common denominator that is almost always worse than each working to maximize their own.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by chefandy on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:48AM (#33981055)
What they didn't tell you is that there's not nearly enough ships.
Re:Where did software go wrong? (2020) by bobleeswagger on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:30AM (#33980959)
Just wait a few more years, it'll trickle down soon ;)