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Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by chatmasta on Monday November 28, 2022 @06:39PM (#33781497)
I was disappointed to see this was not about Blackrock and other private equity groups purchasing rental property.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by obnauticus on Monday November 28, 2022 @06:56PM (#33781672)
These anti-competitive pricing models seem to be the primary motivation for a large scale landlord wanting to invest in the first place. So it sort-of is?
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by epistasis on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:15PM (#33781841)
No, they want to invest because zoning is being used to suppress competition, not because of the software.

This is openly stated in their investment prospectuses, it's not a secret.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by dd36 on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:36PM (#33782051)
Monopoly.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by colechristensen on Monday November 28, 2022 @06:57PM (#33781678)
I’m quite happy to see this having lived in apartments driven by automated pricing which is obviously a new kind of cartel.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by loeg on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:01PM (#33781721)
The innovation here isn't the automated pricing, but convincing all the landlords in an area to collude by sharing pricing and demand data with a central organizer. Humans could do the pricing and it would still be illegal collusion.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by Aunche on Monday November 28, 2022 @09:52PM (#33783115)
If they are really facilitating collusion, then they would be selling a broken product. For example, for simplicity's sake, let's say that a city has a lot of landlords, but all their units are identical and they all follow the RealPage algorithm for price suggestions. Realpage suggests that they charge an exorbitant $10000 per unit, which leads to only 50% of all units being occupied, so your expected value of $5000 per unit. However, if you're a landlord, you'd be better off renting your units at $9000, leading to 90% occupancy. Your expected profit per unit is $8100, so you're actually much better off without the algorithm.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by loeg on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @12:35AM (#33784051)
Your arbitrary figure of $9,000 -> $10,000 causing a 40% drop in occupancy is wholly invented.

You could instead imagine a (still completely fictitious) figure that makes your argument look bad -- e.g., that the raise in rates causes a 0% drop in occupancy. Then the landlords/algorithm win by raising prices.

One reason occupancy rates might remain relatively stable even in the face of rising prices is if consumers have relatively few better options, because e.g. all of your competitors collude to also raise their rates similarly.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by Aunche on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:04AM (#33784528)
> that the raise in rates causes a 0% drop in occupancy.

Housing demand isn't really that inelastic. People will move to less crowded cities if they become too expensive. Americans tend to have much more living space per capita than most of the world, so there is a lot of room to move in with roommates or family.

> all of your competitors collude to also raise their rates similarly.

Realpage doesn't control the prices for the majority of housing in the US, the majority of rental units in the US, or even the majority of multifamily rental units in the US. If they tried to facilitate collusion, their customers would simply lose money.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ryan_lane on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @11:50PM (#33812476)
> People will move to less crowded cities if they become too expensive.

The vast majority of people die within 10 miles of where they were born. People want to live near their families, and for the most part do not want to move to another city, and won't even if their rent is difficult to afford.

> Realpage doesn't control the prices for the majority of housing in the US, the majority of rental units in the US, or even the majority of multifamily rental units in the US.

They don't need to. They just need to control the prices for particular cities, because market prices are heavily tied to regions and not to the entire US. Detroit's housing market crashing didn't affect SF's rent.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ryan_lane on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @11:46PM (#33812457)
There was another recent article related to this product, that showed large-scale landlord (4,000+ units) using this product to run experiments around their vacancy rate vs their revenue, to figure out how much they could raise rates by participating in the collusion. They started at 5% and were testing 15% vacancies. That's a considerable number of units to remove from the market, and basically an unheard of vacancy number to target, but they were showing higher revenue with this model.

It's pretty obvious that this is a net negative on society.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by vkou on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:02PM (#33781725)
Is it really a cartel, or is it just landlords squeezing every penny that they can? With there being a lot of pennies to squeeze due to a double-whammy of supply shortages, and growth in wages for the upper 30% of society?

If people didn't have spare money, rents wouldn't be growing (As nobody would be able to pay), and if vacancies were higher, landlords would have to accept lowball offers.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ceejayoz on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:05PM (#33781743)
Landlords banding together to use one tool to set all the prices sure sounds like a cartel.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by missedthecue on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:13PM (#33781813)
But they aren't banding together. That's like saying devs are banding together to publish apps on the Apple App Store.

There is no mechanism for keeping other landlords from leaving the software, and there are multiple competing alternatives.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ceejayoz on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:26PM (#33781942)
> But they aren't banding together.

Sure, just like Uber is "ride sharing" where the drivers pick the price. "We're all just using the same software" is a thin veneer over what amounts to collusion to raise prices.

> There is no mechanism for keeping other landlords from leaving the software, and there are multiple competing alternatives.

The mechanism is "you lose money" (countries can lose OPEC, but it's still a cartel), and if you read the article the competing alternatives are getting bought out.

"In addition, we understand that the Antitrust Division allowed RealPage to acquire one of its closest competitors, Lease Rent Options, in 2017 – one of more than 10 acquisitions RealPage has made since 2016."

It's pretty effective. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r...

"In one neighborhood in Seattle, ProPublica found, 70% of apartments were overseen by just 10 property managers, every single one of which used pricing software sold by RealPage."

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by vkou on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:30PM (#33781988)
Drivers don't pick the price in Uber (Or with traditional taxis), they only signal whether or not they are willing to work. You can't be a driver and undercut other drivers on that platform.

But nothing stops a landlord from undercutting any other landlord. It's the difference between the Uber 'Marketplace' and an actual market.

> The mechanism is "you lose money"

Yes, that's a market mechanism, it's not a cartel mechanism.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ceejayoz on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:32PM (#33782006)
> Drivers don't pick the price in Uber...

Yes, that's the point. This fact is getting them in hot water in a variety of jurisdictions, as independent contractors are supposed to set their own rates.

RealPage is trying to play the same regulatory evasion games - "it's not collusion, everyone just uses our prices". I hope it ends poorly for them.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by pandaman on Monday November 28, 2022 @09:35PM (#33783001)
>independent contractors are supposed to set their own rates

I am missing this point. Uber drivers can set their rates and not take the rides that are below those rates, can't they? Or do you mean they have to be able to make exactly the rate they set, e.g. the driver's rate is $21.25/h, Uber offers only $30/h and more and the driver takes Uber to court saying he could not set his desirable rate and had been paid more?

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ceejayoz on Monday November 28, 2022 @09:52PM (#33783107)
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

> You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed.

It's a jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction battle at the moment, but the tide seems to be turning. A number of judges have already ruled that Uber and similar companies exercise enough control over their "contractors" for them to be over the line into employee territory.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by pandaman on Monday November 28, 2022 @10:12PM (#33783257)
I have not found anything about the rate on the page you linked. There might be some other considerations in the case of Uber drivers but I specifically asked about the point you had been making about the rate.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by pessimizer on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:28PM (#33781968)
Without application developers, there would be no Apple App Store. You could come up with a sense in which they're not "banding together" to create the app store, but it wouldn't be convincing.

> There is no mechanism for keeping other landlords from leaving the software

Nobody is saying that landlords are being victimized.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by techsupporter on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:24PM (#33781922)
> there are multiple competing alternatives

For landlords, yes.

Not for tenants. That's the crux of the issue here. Tenants have no way of knowing what is happening or why and so the market becomes an anti-competitive cartel. This is doubly so in markets like Seattle, where a single-digit number of management companies cover large swathes of the market.

It's akin to people defending binding arbitration clauses by saying "just choose another competitor." When all of the competitors in the market, especially in a must-have-it-or-else market like housing, are doing the same thing in the same way, there's no choice and no competition.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by colechristensen on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @01:19AM (#33784263)
I think the core of the issue is "pricing as a service" is anticompetitive and should be banned. These service providers likely siphon up tons of data (and probably sell it to other similar service providers) about the market which would otherwise be proprietary business information and are used widely across landlords.

It promotes a perverse incentive for everyone to share business information and have the same pricing models and for the model to promote rising prices consistently across all landlords.

It should be banned because the incentive structure discourages (or eliminates) competition.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by vkou on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:12PM (#33781807)
Does this cartel punish defectors? How can it prevent people who don't want to participate from undercutting it?

It doesn't, and it can't. That's what makes it not a cartel.

The problem is not collusion, the problem is supply shortage. All the sellers raising prices isn't illegal, or cartel-like. All the sellers punishing a seller that lowers prices would be - but it doesn't happen. Not with landlords, at least.

I think our current land policy is pants-on-head stupid, but this isn't the problem with it.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ceejayoz on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:29PM (#33781974)
> Does this cartel punish defectors? How can it prevent people who don't want to participate from undercutting it? It doesn't, and it can't. That's what makes it not a cartel.

Your definition means OPEC isn't a cartel. (That is... incorrect.)

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by timy2shoes on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:04PM (#33781740)
RealPage is Cartel As A Servics (CAAS), by allowing landlords to collude through a 3rd party to raise rents.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by vkou on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:05PM (#33781747)
How is it different from just eyeballing market price from looking at similar units, and renting yours out for +10-15% more? Is there some core part of US land policy that only works if landlords behave like low-information market participants?

If these landlords were colluding with eachother to punish defectors that undercut them, that would be a cartel. If they are all reacting to a shortage by raising their prices, that just makes them... Market agents.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by alistairSH on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:09PM (#33781779)
Unless I’m missing something, it isn’t any different, other than it makes the market more efficient (in that the price gets set “correctly” earlier - by the manual method, a landlord likely over-prices initially and waits for a tenant OR underprices initially and loses that income).

It’s just in a broken market - there isn’t enough supply of housing, so prices are going up. And because everybody needs housing, it feels icky to many people (I’m one of them, but my solution would be relax zoning and allow more housing).

Unless using this system requires participants to set a price, I’m not sure it meets the definition of price fixing. A landlord can still underprice to guarantee a tenant quickly. Or overprice in the hopes they catch a low-info, high-income tenant.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ceejayoz on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:47PM (#33782157)
> How is it different from just eyeballing market price from looking at similar units, and renting yours out for +10-15% more?

OPEC works because they all move together. One of them raising or lowering production alone doesn't do much; all of them doing it at similar times does.

Same with RealPage. By having nearly everyone use it, nearly everyone's pricing moves in a coordinated fashion, and they collectively reduce the chances of downward price pressure.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by ryan_lane on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @11:56PM (#33812509)
> How is it different from just eyeballing market price from looking at similar units, and renting yours out for +10-15% more?

Landlords don't always advertise, and they also negotiate rents. Knowing the actual market price isn't easy (and sometimes not possible), because that information isn't publicly available and certainly isn't real-time.

RealPage is getting private market information from landlords, and using it to coordinate rent prices, including coordinating actions to remove supply from the market to artificially increase prices. This removes competition from an otherwise competitive market. This is collusion via a middleman.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by gonzo41 on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:07PM (#33781764)
This is not true. I encourage you to listen to this two part pod cast about this issue. Robert Evans goes into depth about this. Part one https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236... Part Two https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by psychlops on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:15PM (#33781833)
I literally couldn't make it through the noise to find signal. Is there a specific slot of time to start?
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by johncessna on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:20PM (#33781886)
It's pretty rough. At the 4-5 minute mark the schtick stops.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by RRWagner on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:06PM (#33781760)
>> growth in wages for the upper 30% of society...

Which just means that the 1% can then extract as much of that 30% as possible returning the 29% right back tonwhere they effectively were before the growth (not to mention anyone that got a minimum wage increase)

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by yieldcrv on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:22PM (#33781901)
basically, having uniform rental and vacancy data is one thing, that's nice and new. having uniform rental data to make dynamic pricing based on supply and demand would be great! that's not what's happening here. the uniform data is being used to more opaquely bolster the price of the available units, and that's not good. its anti-competitive at it isn't supporting price discovery, even though it has the capability to do the opposite.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by prpl on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:08PM (#33781769)
Either way it's price coordination, which is illegal.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by naijaboiler on Monday November 28, 2022 @09:25PM (#33782908)
It is effectively a cartel
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by dools on Saturday December 03, 2022 @05:44AM (#33842453)
Define spare money. Since housing isn’t optional, and the cost of being homeless is extremely high, people will cease practically all other consumption in order to pay rent
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by tptacek on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:14PM (#33781822)
PE firms own only an infinitesimal fraction of all available housing.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by BolexNOLA on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:17PM (#33781857)
You’re not wrong but it’s a little more complicated than that.

https://www.marketplace.org/2022/03/02/how-private-equity-is...

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by tptacek on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:22PM (#33781903)
Is it any more than just a little more complicated? None of this establishes how PE firms would gain any sort of pricing power.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by cyanydeez on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:16PM (#33781846)
Buying out houses is a different issue than large scale price fixing
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by treeman79 on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:23PM (#33781910)
A Black rock house company (invintation homes)lied repeatedly about weird smells in my house. whole family has permanent injuries from it.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by radicaldreamer on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:25PM (#33781938)
What were the smells and what are the injuries?
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by turtleyacht on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:25PM (#33781935)
Please tell us more.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by treeman79 on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @12:27AM (#33784019)
Natural gas + carbon monoxide, oddly didn’t have the rotten egg smell.

When we previewed home all the windows were open. After signing paperwork we closed up windows. Hour later we noticed smell. 3 month of being told it was carpet. Floor, paint. They inspecting and saying everything is fine.

Our deductive reasoning skills where nil fairly quick into this.

Finally called gas company even. They started screaming for us to run From the road. Didn’t even get to the house before alarms went off. Kids went from gifted to special needs. I went from top programmer to taking hours to figure out laundry.

Doctors wouldn’t say gas caused injuries. So lawyers didn’t care.

About 70% Back to normal 4 years later.

Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by turtleyacht on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:44PM (#33938292)
Thank-you. Glad to hear you got better. After reading this, a recent combo monitor helped ease my doubts.
Re:US Reps Urge DOJ to Investigate Anticompetitive Conduct A... by bmorton on Monday November 28, 2022 @07:55PM (#33782233)
It's only smellz. It's ok.