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Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by mountainriver on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:52AM (#33733423)
Trying to restart an innovation engine in a large old company like this seems to be nearly impossible.

I’ve been a part of a number of startups that were gobbled up by big co trying to innovate their business, and it always seems to fail.

The problem I continually see is that in big companies anyone who sticks around and does “something” gets promoted. Over time as the good people leave you have a layer of of really bad managers and directors that just effectively block innovation. They’ve spent their careers being shills and are threatened by anyone innovating.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by Spooky23 on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:06PM (#33733599)
The stakes change. In a small growth org you need to succeed in doing something to survive. In a big org, you have to not fuck up.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by waboremo on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:46PM (#33734083)
I'd say for a big org the priority isn't "not fucking up", it's not objecting.

In a small growth org, despite severe rank differences, you're likely to have some impact on direction if you disagree. In a big org, there is no impact. You either are the wavemaker or those gleefully riding the waves. It doesn't matter how many "we listen to everybody's opinion" there are in these big orgs, wavemakers simply keep a lot of key information to themselves which puts everyone else within at a huge disadvantage. This also causes innovative thinkers to propose ideas less, because they got burned that one time when a wavemaker shut them down with previously hidden information.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by majormajor on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:03PM (#33734340)
> I'd say for a big org the priority isn't "not fucking up", it's not objecting.

At the organization's level it's "don't fuck up" since you're already making a lot of money and a lot of people's livelihoods are depending on that - the trick, if you're managing in a big org, is how to avoid that turning to a "don't disagree" culture before "not changing" turns into a bad thing instead of a good thing.

I haven't figured out how to do that - or to work under people who also haven't - so I prefer small orgs.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by waboremo on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:22PM (#33734584)
I wonder if the "don't fuck up" principle at an organizational level really applies past a certain point. I think that's where a lot of the internal dilemmas stem from. Google as an example, they can "fuck up" tremendously on an organizational level, numerous failed products and services costing billions. Yet they still roll on, and even interns are very well aware not to do something catastrophically detrimental such as turning Google Search into a TikTok clone. There's just far too much momentum that fucking up should ever be a concern once you're at Google/Intel's level.

So perhaps the fear of fucking up plays an integral role in creating this atmosphere of unchanging. When you're fearful, you're less likely to take risks in general, even if that fear is subconscious rather than active.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by danuker on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:10PM (#33733654)
Too bad industries of this size need insane amounts of capital to stay competitive.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by bergenty on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:09PM (#33733640)
Next to impossible but not impossible. Steve Jobs did it with apple in recent memory.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by hungryforcodes on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:20PM (#33733783)
True, though that's because Apple basically bought NeXT, it's IP, OS, top executives and Jobs had learned alot about the mistakes he'd made. Also he was singularly driven and charismatic (like him or not).

Basically it's as if Intel bought AMD and switched, but AMD had some visionary CEO that could lead Intel to victory.

The days of Moore are over. Still I used to hate Intel, but now root for them. I guess I like underdogs.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by mhitza on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:29PM (#33733889)
I don't know how you can root for Intel. Until AMD made it's comeback Intel charged premium prices for very low performance improvement generation after generation.

Intel is still the primary CPU on most laptops produced today; and only in the last 6-12 months I've started seeing some options to buy AMD powered laptops.

Even ignoring that Intel's vPRO/ME implementation is still scarier (potentially more invasive) than the somewhat equivalent AMD "feature".

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by pengaru on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:46PM (#33734091)
> only in the last 6-12 months I've started seeing some options to buy AMD powered laptops

The Lenovo X395 was released in 2019 w/2nd gen ryzen.

Then their X13 in 2020 w/3rd gen ryzen, meaning you could have been using an 8-core X13 for years by now.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by soco on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:03PM (#33734350)
Also Lenovo T495 same year - I'm typing on it right now.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by icedchai on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:53PM (#33734186)
You are mostly right, but AMD laptops have been available for years. One of my few Windows systems is an HP Envy x360 laptop with an AMD 4500U, from mid-2020.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by 0cf8612b2e1e on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:40PM (#33734786)
I also blame Intel as the reason ECC memory is not the standard in everything.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by adrian_b on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:13PM (#33735152)
Yes, I am old enough to remember the years 1994/1995, when Intel has introduced the split between the "Pentium Pro" CPUs intended for "professionals" who should pay dearly for the right of having computers that function without errors, and the "Pentium" CPUs (2nd generation Pentium @ 90/100 MHz), intended for the naive laymen, whose computers are not important, so it does not matter if their computers make mistakes from time to time.

This market segmentation introduced by Intel has broken the tradition created by IBM, who had taken care from the beginning to provide the IBM PC with error-detecting memory.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by bergenty on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:23PM (#33733815)
I like underdogs and I like to buy American.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by hungryforcodes on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:10PM (#33734442)
Not sure why you are down voted.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by bergenty on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:18PM (#33734544)
Probably people uncomfortable with explicit nationalism.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by umanwizard on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:37PM (#33734759)
Leaving aside the question of why you like to buy American… note that AMD is American too.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by MobiusHorizons on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:15PM (#33735165)
My read is that people who like to "buy American" are often concerned with where the product is manufactured, as opposed to where the company is headquartered, or where the product was designed. On that score AMD is quite a bit less American made than Intel simply due to being fabricated it Taiwan and assembled in Malaysia (as far as I can find).
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by adrian_b on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:24PM (#33735247)
I think that there are a few decades since I have last seen any Intel CPU that was assembled in USA and not somewhere in SE Asia.

It is true that the Intel wafers might be fabricated in USA, besides a few other places in Israel or Europe.

However, it is likely that the assembly employs more workers than the wafer fabrication plants.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by bbarnett on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:09PM (#33734422)
The days of Moore are over.

I have heard this repeated for almost 30 years. Are they really?

Or are they one discovery away from continuing?

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by marcosdumay on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:40PM (#33734796)
Yes, for some 10 years at least.

If you go read what his article said, it's very clear and incontestable ended. Still, that doesn't stop a bunch of people that have no idea what Moore's Law was about from claiming whatever they want to.

Anyway, where did you hear Moore's Law ended 30 years ago? That one doesn't make sense.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by CyberDildonics on Thursday November 24, 2022 @08:55PM (#33738302)
Yes, for some 10 years at least.

You are thinking of denard scaling. Transistors have been shrinking and counts have been increasing.

Anyway, where did you hear Moore's Law ended 30 years ago?

People were saying it was going to end, not that it already ended.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by marcosdumay on Friday November 25, 2022 @08:24AM (#33742135)
The most superficial and literal reading of Moore's Law is "the number of transistors on the most economical package doubles every X months" where X changed a bit over the decades.

Not only has the number of transistors on the largest package not followed an exponential for a decade (a good hint is that people denying it repeats the law with X changed on every single iteration), but as fabs adopt more and more complex processes, the number of transistors on the most economical package has been growing very slowly, with no perspective of a doubling any soon.

On a deeper reading, the Moore's paper is all about the economics of semiconductor fabrication. And not only companies that aren't on the most advanced process are not failing as they used to, but nobody is using the law anymore to size investments.

There is just no way to read Moore's Law and interpret it into something that still exists.

> People were saying it was going to end, not that it already ended.

Oh, so you meant to say that they were correct?

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by CyberDildonics on Friday November 25, 2022 @11:29PM (#33749961)
Transistor counts keep going up
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by nine_k on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:40PM (#33734785)
Any one discovery isn't going to suffice. Building a bunch of technologies to make that discovery usable and profitable is hard and long work.

We know for years that carbon nanotubes can make great, very compact, very fast transistors. There's nothing close to a practical application of this discovery, because we barely know how to make nanotubes in tiny amounts, a handful of labs, at a great expense.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by AnimalMuppet on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:54PM (#33734970)
The graph of CPU density, clock speed, etc has a kink in it a decade or two ago. So, yeah, at least what we thought of as "Moore's Law" is dead, and has been for a while.

Dennard scaling broke down around 2005 or 2006.

Are we one discovery away? No, probably not. Leakage current isn't a "one trick" problem, especially as the features continue to get smaller. It's a fundamentally hard problem, and as you go to smaller feature sizes, it keeps getting harder. As we go to 3D approaches, thermal issues probably aren't "one trick" away either.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by Someone on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:05PM (#33735078)
Have you? There were plenty of people predicting Moore’s law would end in x years (e.g. https://www.technologyreview.com/2000/05/01/236362/the-end-o..., from 2000), and some people (including Moore himself) argued that progression had slowed a bit, but I don’t remember anybody saying the law already had ended at any time.

(Unless you use an extremely strict definition of it, of course. I don’t think that’s reasonable, though, given, reading https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220166914_The_Lives..., that even Moore changed the definition a few times)

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by criddell on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:20PM (#33735211)
Herb Sutter (Microsoft C++ guy) has been talking about the twilight of Moore’s law since 2005ish and I think he’s right.

http://www.gotw.ca/publications/concurrency-ddj.htm

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by w-j-w on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:20PM (#33733788)
Many people complain about how good individual producers, but few talk about effective front-line managers being moved to where they are less effective. In organizations it's often assumed that the best managers need to be near the top of the org chart to spread their effectiveness as far as possible, but I contend that these great managers might be better off near producers in critical areas.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by cma on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:34PM (#33733948)
Since hierarchies are usually exponentially shrinking in headcount towards the top, this shouldn't have a significant impact numerically right?
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by marcosdumay on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:44PM (#33734848)
Very competent people are pretty rare in large organizations, once you factor in their environment.

Do you put your one best performing manager at the top or at your most impactful project? (I'm not sure about the answer, but I'm not sure it a real option exists either.)

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by throwaway9870 on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:51PM (#33734156)
In a small organization, people usually succeed by being motivated by dream of success. In large organizations, people seem to succeed by fearing and avoid failure.

That yields a very different organization.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by jiggawatts on Thursday November 24, 2022 @06:10PM (#33737260)
When I was a dev working on small teams, say, 2-3 people, we all had a collective "ownership" of the product. If some page was slow, taking multiple seconds to load, we would simply fix it.

I just noticed that a due to a small error (misconfigured caching), a popular government's website is taking 4+ seconds to load its most used page.

There are three teams responsible for this thing. The team that "owns" it are scientists, not programmers, so they literally don't understand anything I'm saying. Their manager is 60 years old an probably still has his emails printed out for him by his secretary.

The database was done by a "information" team, and they don't care about the poor performance of downstream apps.

The downstream app was written by a "web" team, and they're (somewhat correctly) blaming the database team and their schema.

Everyone points fingers at each other. Years go past, the site is rewritten at great expense, but that doesn't help. Meanwhile the contractor that wrote the database has left to go back to India. The scientists upgrade the performance of their bit... because that's what they understand, but that has no bearing on the performance of a system three steps removed from their systems.

All attempts at fixing any of this in a meaningful way get rejected because "they're waiting on Big Name Consultancy to provide a report", or because "the next release 2-3 years from now will fix it", or... whatever.

It's just incredible to watch how fantastically inept these big orgs can get.

The fix for this issue is one line of code, but after years of trying they've failed to apply it, because despite dozens of people across multiple teams being involved, nobody actually writes code. The DB coder quit, remember? The website development was outsourced. And so on.

I suspect much of the same thing is happening at Twitter, and also at Intel.

These orgs become fantastically disfunctional, because it's just meetings and paperwork, but no action. The action people get outnumbered 10-to-1, then 100-to-1, and even worse. They just get told no, they get "priorities" assigned to them, asked to justify everything they do, and so on.

PS: Here's a fun example: https://nitter.it/CaseyNewton/status/1595818243620380672#m

> One of the people fired Musk’s latest purge was Ikuhiro Ihara, a highly respected senior software engineer who helped lead the push to expand tweets to 280 characters.

> Ihara fought relentlessly for 280 in the face of strong skepticism from top executives, I’m told. He co-authored the blog post explaining the value of 280 characters when it launched

I mean... holy cow. Some poor guy wasted a decent chunk of his adult life fighting internal politics for something that ought to have been an obvious upgrade. Crazy.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by gumby on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:02PM (#33735054)
> Trying to restart an innovation engine in a large old company like this seems to be nearly impossible.

It's super hard and I've thought about it for years (even though I can't imagine working for a big company -- even with my own companies I leave when the headcount gets to about 200). But I've wondered if there's a kind of "hayflick limit" for corporations too.

Consider Intel. One way to get the old spark back would be to simply start a new company. Takes a lot of capital and involves a lot of risk. The only tech company I know that does this well is Cisco; it's also emerged less intensively in pharma. Other than that, no.

Second: Aggressively prune the product line, milk what cash cows you have, use the savings to invest heavily (including increasing compensation for those who remain, so they feel it's worth staying to be part of something growing). The advantage of this is that you ignore the deadweight problem you describe: it's too hard to root it out when you have a crisis, so just do it at a macro level. I've never seen this really be pulled off; the closet is late 90s Apple when everybody knew they were in an existential crisis and they had enough emotional commitment to keep enough people on board (since they couldn't afford to do the "raise compensation" path right away).

Actually a not bad example is a company called Intel when Grove cut away the cash cow, memory, replacing it with the unproven CPU business because he could see memory rapidly becoming a commodity boat anchor. But that Intel was a much smaller company, with the founders still around, in a immature market. And it was a bet the company manoevre.

The prune-and-milk (mixed metaphor) requires a compelling vision that includes an extreme sense of urgency. Elop's "burning platform" memo at Nokia tried to give the sense of urgency but had no compelling vision beyond "the company needs to make money in order to survive". Gelsinger did a good job of setting out a coherent vision, but is it compelling enough to get good people to join & stay? I doubt it.

(The reason for the "milk" part of the approach is because while you're in the shit, even if you are digging your way out, most of the public articles will be like the submission we are discussing, which makes execution harder).

But in general, apart from a big pool of money and a legacy customer base, why would you try this with a big, cumbersome company when you could just do a startup? That's what Cisco honed in the 90s and still does: I think the company needs to invest in new tech X using approach Y, but that would threaten the revenues of some existing product line. You think tech X is great but approach Z is better. We both quit and start companies (sometimes Cisco even invests in later rounds). Eventually it turns out that one of us was right. That company gets bought (big bonus for the founders, who rejoin Cisco) and the founders of the one that didn't win also can get their jobs back (maybe through a small acquisition so they get a small bonus for their risk taking).

This allows them to compensate innovators outside the normal process (which doesn't piss off the MBA VPs), allow some competing technological developments, and keeps them big. I don't know if that process is as big and institutionalized as it was in the Chambers/Volpe days, but it was super smart.

Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by hw on Thursday November 24, 2022 @02:12PM (#33735139)
Or the acquisition was meant to take over / replace an existing product and those working on the existing product had no idea, and what happens is continued misalignment, pushbacks, conflicts and years go by with nothing being done.
Re:The numbers that explain Intel’s decline by marssaxman on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:24AM (#33753371)
I was part of a startup that was gobbled up by Intel trying to innovate their business. Their culture was slow-moving and process-heavy, which makes sense for precise, high-volume manufacturing, but for software development it felt like wading through glue. I had a good impression of management in the group we got acquired into (itself a previous acquisition), but some political conflict with a different group led to our project getting shelved anyway. I quit last year as part of a general exodus.

I keep hearing Intel management saying the right things about what they're trying to do, but I think it will be a long slow process if it can work at all.