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Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by halfmatthalfcat on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:46PM (#33659828)
A lot of Seniors/Staff don't write "code". They're architecting/planning/guiding. If I'm a Senior Staff DevOps engineer who maintains our entire Kube infra, am I gonna show Elon some sweet YAML configs? "Oh here's my Go templating for our org wide Helm charts that isn't really novel but is really important?"
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by khazhoux on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:48PM (#33659890)
In an org with thousands of software engineers, shouldn’t most of them be writing code?

Feels like everyone wants to be the exception, and just assumes “someone else” should do actual hands-on work

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by halfmatthalfcat on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:55PM (#33660042)
Every organization is different but no, I don't think most of them should be writing code. I wouldn't put any kind of quantifier on it. Software development is not just "writing code". Shipping code from ideation to production is more complicated than layman want to make it out to be, especially at these scales. This dystopian "nobody works" fantasy that some people wish for is simply that, a fantasy. I'm willing to bet most, if not all Twitter developers were above average across the industry and were producing work of value.
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by Gene_Parmesan on Friday November 18, 2022 @02:00PM (#33660157)
No, and this is a core misunderstanding of the profession.

The job of software engineers is to design and implement solutions to business problems with technology. The job of a software engineer is not merely "write code." Writing code will almost certainly be the smallest percentage of a skilled engineer's time. They need to be spending their time thinking and designing.

We're talking about solving extreme scaling problems at extreme scales here, not churning out crud apps at a local freelance studio.

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by khazhoux on Friday November 18, 2022 @02:28PM (#33660670)
I am not misunderstanding the profession. At a small or a large SW company, engineers should —by and large, with some exceptions— be writing code. I don’t care (and never mentioned) how much time the writing of code takes… whether people spend one hour a day typing or 8.

But while engineers obviously have to spend time thinking and designing, it’s the code that does the actual work and embodies the value of the engineer’s plans. I simply fail to see how a software org could exist where only a small minority of engineers are coding. Makes no sense to me, sorry.

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by ferrumfist on Friday November 18, 2022 @02:17PM (#33660484)
Junior/Mid Perspective: "I was hired to write code, sometimes I solve business problems"

Senior/Staff's Perspective: "I was hired to solve business problems, sometimes I write code"

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by khazhoux on Friday November 18, 2022 @06:10PM (#33664141)
Hacker News Perspective: “I’m a software developer — how dare you ask to see my code! How dare you even imply that developers should be writing code! The best software organizations are the ones where barely a few people (out of thousanda of developers) actually write any code at all.”

;-)

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by ferrumfist on Friday November 18, 2022 @07:56PM (#33665385)
You're completely right, maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code. Maybe every complex problem humanity faces today has an equally easy solution. Maybe nuance and being methodical is for chumps.
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by khazhoux on Friday November 18, 2022 @08:26PM (#33665662)
> maybe a software developer's total contribution to the bottom line can be conveyed with a few snapshots of context-less code.

I've never suggested someone should be fired if they can't produce code snippets. But it's fair to expect people who don't actively code (when they're not managers or have a non-coding title) to have a reason they're not coding. And there are many perfectly great reasons, especially for very senior engineers. But if someone isn't coding and they're not actually doing anything else of particular value... well, they're not valuable engineers.

Code is not the single-and-only decider of an engineer's contributions, but I reject the notion that it can't be a starting filter to evaluate someone's contributions, and the assessment to proceed from there.

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by dboreham on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:52PM (#33659965)
> shouldn’t most of them be writing code

In an org of that size, there's much work just in stopping other people writing really bad code.

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by khazhoux on Friday November 18, 2022 @02:30PM (#33660702)
I definitely agree with this. But if an org is full of people doing nothing but this, you got a real problem on your hands.
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by qwytw on Friday November 18, 2022 @02:00PM (#33660148)
It's the other way around, The smaller the org the more lines per code you would expected per engineer. Scaling codebases is hard.

> Feels like everyone wants to be the exception

Right. You can easily write 10x the number of lines than an average engineer and create negative value for the product.

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by moonchrome on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:53PM (#33659991)
Do you actually write software then ? In practice I've found DevOps to mean "sysadmins who know how to write scripts and understand enough development process to be supportive".
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by cesaref on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:58PM (#33660095)
I've found it to formalise the realisation that there are a number of developers who are hands on and keep the stuff running in production, and rather than employ another bunch to do this, it might make more sense to just leave the developers to it.
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by Teandw on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:55PM (#33660043)
Then the email wasn't targeted to you. So all of what you said instantly becomes irrelevant.
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by JohnBooty on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:58PM (#33660102)
I mean honestly, yeah?

If I was forced to take part in this absolutely idiotic exercise I’d be including descriptions of the purpose of the code along with the screenshots/printouts.

“These are the configuration files I maintain. Collectively these control the orchestration of 9,000 of our servers which make up over 80% of our infrastructure” would be be pretty compelling.

Ultimately, while he’s going about it in an insane way that I will not defend one iota, he’s trying to figure out who does what.

It’s one of those things where you have to read between the lines and figure out what the client/exec/boomer actually needs and wants, versus the nonsensical thing they actually asked for.

Your boss who wants his emails printed out every morning may actually just literally want them on paper OR they may actually want a system of triaging and responding to messages that is easy to do with paper but is difficult to achieve with software (and is still, honestly, clunkier than using paper sometimes if we’re being honest)

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by ncallaway on Friday November 18, 2022 @02:26PM (#33660647)
Or it's just a brute expression of dominance to find out who the subservient employees are.

A hazing ritual to find out who is properly loyal, and who is unwilling to bend the knee.

I don't think he cares too much about the screenshots themselves. I think this is a pretty simple test to see who comes running to the 10th floor and who says: "that's insane, no".

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by cowuser666 on Friday November 18, 2022 @02:17PM (#33660474)
Counterpoint: yes?
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by Terretta on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:58PM (#33660093)
> A lot of Seniors/Staff don't write "code". They're architecting/planning/guiding.

This is a problem.

Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by JohnBooty on Friday November 18, 2022 @02:08PM (#33660305)
You want your seniors/staff to have engineering experience, but at some level complaining that they don’t code any more is like complaining that the people who design bridges aren’t going out there and laying concrete foundations 400m deep into river beds any more.
Re:If you (still) work at Twitter and you can code, head to ... by Terretta on Friday November 18, 2022 @08:37PM (#33665749)
no it'd be like saying people who design bridges don't need to know CAD

you're saying they can't pour footings for a data center -- not the same job at all

(or even can't set up a build system, which, god bless)