Why not get Dubai Golden Visa for 5-10 years instead, get 0% taxes and the ability to live wherever you want (Dubai doesn't enforce residency duration limits to Golden Visa holders)?

It might be a good choice for a digital nomad with a short-term horizon, but if you want to stay somewhere else for more than 183 days per year, you will be considered a tax resident in that country, making your Dubai Golden Visa worthless.

Estonian e-residency doesn't solve that problem either, but conditions are worse.

My entire point was, that the Estonian E-Residency is only worth it, if you are willing to relocate to Estonia. If you want to spend more than 183 days per year in some other country, then the Estonian E-Residency is not the right choice.

cost of diet coke, steak, and internet please, if someone's HNing from Estonia here.

This website is hilarious! Thanks for sharing! I thought the place where I live is expensive, used the website to compare with Tallinn and found place where I live is actually cheaper in most areas :)

Can confirm that those numbers seem to be mostly up to date.

I did not expect for the cost of a home to be almost 500% more than where I am currently.

Estonia can be considered a Nordic country. Many people from Finland have moved to Tallinn for lower taxes and lower prices, because it's just two hours by ferry away from Helsinki.

If you are not a Software Developer then its pretty much impossible to buy a home. Prices are cheaper out side of the city but then you will be dealing with long commute times or would have to work from home.

Five months ago:

"Estonia clocks fastest inflation in the Eurozone at 20.1 percent" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31665931

Many countries in Europe, including Estonia, are in the small peak of real estate bubble. Inflation is very high and people have been hurrying to invest money they have. Real estate is obvious choice for many.

This site has correct prices for Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

With the exception of education for children is still looks slightly cheaper than living in the rural Southeast in the US.

CocaCola Zero ~1.5 euro/1.5L, good 400G steak ~30 euro, 100M internet 23 euro, 500M 32 euro

Feel free to check out market prices directly, from the following top supermarket chains' websites:

https://www.prismamarket.ee/products | https://www.rimi.ee/epood/en | https://www.barbora.ee/ | https://www.selver.ee/ (no English)

Any cashback rewards on that at participating Exxon stations?

Bcs Estonia is a small democratic state and UAE is a disgusting dictatorship?

Disgusting dictatorship?

You are too polite.

AFAIK all Baltic states have a minority with limited rights, so they are far from true democracy. It's irrelevant what they think of that minority/what is their history with that minority, they simply can't claim to be fully democratic.

I dont hail from Estonia, but if you disqualify it as a democracy... pretty much all other european nations and the USA will have to be disqualified too and for the same reasons.

Its quality of life index is way higher then the USA as well, though that doesn't really say anything about its democracy.

https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking

> AFAIK all Baltic states have a minority with limited rights, so they are far from true democracy.

It would be interesting to see any reputable sources claiming that Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are "far from true democracies". Especially, when compared with much larger EU countries, like Poland and Hungary[1].

[1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-tells-hungary-poland...

A quick question - how can a person born in a Baltic state and living there their whole life end up without citizenship? How is that democratic? Don't you see any problem there? That doesn't happen even between Romanians and Hungarians that are often at each other's throat for similar historical reasons.

> A quick question - how can a person born in a Baltic state and living there their whole life end up without citizenship?

It should only be possible, if that person was born in Soviet Union (that is, before 1990), and doesn't speak the official language of the country he / she is living in.

I understand you are used to it, but it's really bad optics from the outside. How can there be people in their 30s without a citizenship? Estonian is a Finno-Ugric language which means it's extremely difficult to learn due to a completely alien structure of the language (compared to almost all European languages). Even Finland allows both Finnish and Swedish as official languages and doesn't discriminate Finnish Swedes that they don't speak Finnish. So you have some sort of "Eastern-European" flavor of democracy that allows a portion of population be marginalized based on their language.

> How can there be people in their 30s without a citizenship?

Because they've chosen not to pursue citizenship. There's a simplified path that anyone in this situation can utilize. I don't see how giving them the choice and allowing them to stay in the country indefinitely even if they choose no is in any way "un-democratic".

And if you're suggesting that 30 years is not enough time to learn the absolute basics of a language, that is just utterly ridiculous.

Look, Baltic states have my sympathy for what you managed to achieve in 30 years. I understand you needed a few years to establish yourselves as independent nations, assert/reclaim your national character and show it to your big bad neighbor. However, 10-15 years would be sufficient for that. Having that same problem for 30 years is just bad and you can try to explain it away as much as you want.

> Having that same problem for 30 years is just bad and you can try to explain it away as much as you want.

I think as an outsider you are completely missing the point: if Estonians ever wanted to give the Estonian citizenship to the residents who are unwilling to learn the official language of the country, they would have already done that.

So your solution is to basically have them as "untouchable caste" that is supposed to pay taxes but can't vote, despite being born there and living there all their lives. Ideally if they just disappeared. And you don't see any issue with that. You are basically confirming all my arguments so far.

I believe that you totally lack understanding of the situation.

These people were never born in Estonia, they were born in the USSR.

These people never spoke Estonian, and never tried to speak.

Nobody ever asked them to stay in Estonia and to pay taxes in Estonia.

They are always welcome to leave, if they don't want to fully integrate into the Estonian society by learning the official language of the country.

Fundamentally, the ethnic Estonians don't owe anything to the descendants of their occupiers.

> I understand you are used to it, but it's really bad optics from the outside. How can there be people in their 30s without a citizenship?

Technically, Estonia is not the successor state of the USSR, Russia is. If a person was born in the USSR, and only speaks the official language of the successor state of the USSR, then that person should probably be a Russian citizen, not Estonian.

"Technically, Slovakia is not the successor state of Czechoslovakia, Czechia is. If a person was born in Czechoslovakia, and only speaks the official language of the successor state of Czechoslovakia, then that person should probably be a Czech citizen, not Slovak."

> Most varieties of Czech and Slovak are mutually intelligible, forming a dialect continuum (spanning the intermediate Moravian dialects) rather than being two clearly distinct languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech%E2%80%93Slovak_languages

> state and living there their whole life end up without citizenship

Not true for Lithuania. Educate yourself.

> A quick question - how can a person born in a Baltic state and living there their whole life end up without citizenship?

The people in question are ethnic Russians who CHOOSE to not get a citizenship. They choose this, beccause people in Baltics without citizenship have the right to travel both within the EU and in Russia without a visa. Just to make it extra clear, let me draw you a table of a citizenship matrix in Estonia:

Estonian citizen - can travel within EU, needs visa for Russia

Russian citizen - needs visa for EU, can travel within Russia

No citizenship - can travel within EU, can travel within Russia

Thanks for giving me another perspective - so it's basically always a hack to go around limitations?

They can convert themselves to a Russian citizen at any time. They don't do it, because they don't want to actually live in Russia. They just want to be able to go there regularly for family and friends.

In the 1990s Estonian citizenship was given to any resident who asked for it, zero requirements. The people who remain stateless today rejected the proposal. Nowadays its more difficult to get Estonian citizenship, but still within reach for plenty of these people. They just don't want to do it, again, because they have friends and family in Russia - and Estonian citizens can't freely travel to Russia.

They can still vote for local elections and work. So there isn't really a strong incentive to care.

The best incentive for getting an actual citizenship is for those who want to travel beyond EU & Russia, because the global world doesn't give these stateless people special rights.

Thanks, I might have been misinformed then. I'll look into it in detail to set my perception straight when I have more time.

Who decides what's a true democracy?

Athens didn't have universal suffrage, and they invented democracy (and were in many ways far more democratic than anything we have today). They had some pretty radical measures for mixing up who actually got to hold office, such as sortition, and misbehaving officials risked ostracicsm by public vote.

I think this is something that is severely overlooked in contemporary democracy. It's a very small clique indeed that stands any realistic chance of holding office in most western democracies. Ultimately doesn't really matter who gets to vote if the candidates are all the same.

> AFAIK all Baltic states have a minority with limited rights, so they are far from true democracy.

Limited rights in the sense of not being able to vote for the parliament, sure. However that isn't unusual at all. In fact, I don't know of any counter example. Do you have an example of a country where non-citizens can vote for the highest form of government?

As for local elections, in Estonia both Russian citizens and ethnic Russians without any citizenship are allowed to vote. That is extremely democractic.

So not paying taxes like everybody else which pay for public services you use is morally defensible as long as you don't pay those taxes to a democratic nation as opposed to a dictatorship?

This, I have to imagine, would come down to soft power. To my knowledge, it’s /very/ rarely free to move wealth across borders. So if a country were to strongly incentivize investment a certain way all of a sudden, it would be ideal if the political leanings were aligned with yours. Perhaps that might mean investing/holding your wealth in a country where there are likely to be further breaks for renewables. Who knows.

This isn’t a super thought-through response. Would be curious to see if people have ideas to add.

I think pipodeclown is more onto:

Instead of avoiding taxes and coming up with silly hacks - one should pay his fair share in his own country and try to build community and wealth around himself and his close ones.

Energy/wealth spent to avoid taxes in way where you move from country to country or do some weird stuff could be spent probably on building a small business or two.

I agree there are bad places to live and people have to run away from these or move because they don't earn enough in their place so they move out for more opportunity, but if it goes down to "I just want to keep more money for myself" is just not right and not moral at all.

Imagine being a 20-year old in Germany and Netherlands and finding the cheapest house you can own goes for 500k. Your salary peaks at 80k after 10 years of work, half of it goes to taxes and 1/3 of that is lost on rent you are forced to pay. Your only option is a 30+ year mortgage that will send you to a rat race with no options to leave, especially when you get married. Or you spend 5 years in Dubai, working remotely for 100k+, return back home and buy a property. Then you work only as much as you need. What would be your choice?

Sure, but what you are describing is not the same as becoming a tax resident of country solely for tax gains, I think that is morally wrong. I do believe in open borders and flows of labor, if specific part of the the world raise wages to attract skilled labour, I think that's great, more choice for us all! I personally would still want to live in the Netherlands earning a third of the disposable income compared to Dubai for various reason, including moral as well as standard of livings reasons but I completely understand somebody else might make a different choice.

What does this have to do with tax management?

Some people still hold moral above money.

Current income, inflation and taxation levels in the EU can be considered immoral as well. Moreover, Estonia has issues with human rights (unless you assume Russian-speaking people are subhumans).

> unless you assume Russian-speaking people are subhumans

what ?

> Current income, inflation and taxation levels in the EU can be considered immoral as well

There is no free lunch, that's how we get infrastructure, healthcare, social benefits, &c.

If you think Estonia is as fucked up as the UAE we can stop discussing now, you're either completely delusional or acting in bad faith, feel free to go live there, if all you care about is money I'm sure it feels like Heaven

Read about how 1/3 to 1/2 of population is treated in Baltic countries, then get back to preaching about how moral/democratic they are. How can people born there living there for decades end up without a citizenship? Dubai improved a lot in recent years but the stench of being built on slave labor will be there. So was UK/France/Belgium/Spain/Portugal. Show me a single moral country, I'll move there in an instant.

The classic "every country did at least one bad thing sometimes in the past so stoning homosexuals to death in 2022 isn't that bad", Alright :|

If you absolutely love money and have no moral at least say it, even Soros did it: "I am basically there to make money. I cannot and do not look at the social consequences of what I do."

1/3 to 1/2 is a tremendous exaggeration. In Latvia it is ~11%, in Estonia, close to 5%, and in Lithuania, next to non existent.

The predominantly ethnic Russian who were living in the SSR of Latvia or Estonia, but were not Latvian citizens before 1940, and who have not learned the language and acquired citizenship after '91 have rights, but cannot vote or hold some political offices. Same with any other foreigner. They can learn the national language and apply for citizenship. Choosing not to doesn't mean they are treated poorly or unfairly.

https://rosalux-geneva.org/baltics-breaking-up-after-a-force...

I don't understand what you mean by "ability to live wherever you want". Taxes are pretty much always based on residency, it doesn't matter whether you hold a Dubai Golden visa if you live outside of Dubai.

For some reason software engineers often think they can work remotely and live wherever they want. I lived in Japan for a long time and english-speaking forums about Japan are full of people asking how to move to Japan and keep a US job, or matter-of-factly stating "I have a spouse visa and get paid to my US account so I don't have pay taxes in Japan" which is of course completely wrong.

They can spend 5 months in Japan, 4 months in Korea and 3 months in Hong Kong each year and be fine wrt taxation if they work remotely in the US.

From a US point of view maybe but it’s complicated in Japan. For starters you are not allowed to work remotely on a tourist visa waiver and work done remotely I Japan is not “foreign sourced income”, at least not for a normal situation. There’s conditions which may trigger tax residency, and finally regardless of your status, work done in Japan can cause liabilities for the US company.

Also the posts I mentioned are almost universally “I assume or have assumed that I can just buy a house and work remotely from Japan”, but there a few that are looking for loopholes to be a digital nomad.

You are most likely correct - those who want to own a property/live there forever are out of luck and likely bend local laws. It's always best to talk to your tax advisor wrt these issues to avoid any troubles later (I did to mine before I traveled around the world working remotely).

You still need residency for your income. In this case, it'll probably be the USA unless you can convince the IRS otherwise.

If you make sure you aren't living in a single country for over 180 days, you can still utilize Dubai taxation. For example, you spend 179 days in your home country in the spring/summer, then travel a bit for a few months, then park in Dubai for winter. With regular Dubai visa, you'd need to spend 8 months there. Dubai's CoL is comparable to Germany. If you earn $200+k/year remotely, you can buy a house in your home country in a few years and move back. 0% tax means you get $200k, with monthly living expenses around $2000 including health insurance and rent, keeping $176k (adjust when married with kids etc.).

You can also do that without Dubai visa.

Maybe if you are in a country with super low taxes for IT folks like Romania, Poland, Croatia etc. But that won't work in Germany, Benelux, France, Spain, Italy, Scandinavia where taxes can be 40-60% at that income level.

What I meant is if you spend less than 180 days in a country (in general), you are not taxed in that country irregardless of whether you have a Dubai visa or not. You can alternate between any 2-3 countries and it doesn't have to include Dubai. Country of citizenship is mostly irrelevant unless you are American.

I think you'd need at least one country to give you a taxation statement for a given year or you risk your home country will extract those taxes from you later. I can ask my tax person about it.

I get you don't really understand well how these things work. I suggest you don't give advice in this area. Some people will find themselves in trouble because of it.

I am not giving advice, every country is different. But that is the most common rule, with some caveats.

I think Spain has the "Beckam Law" that you don't get taxed for 6 years if your revenue comes from out of Spain (remote work)

You need to reside at least 10 years in Spain before you can invoke Beckham's Law, so not an option for many people.

I searched online and it says:

> Not having been a resident during the 10 years immediately preceding the date of application.

Which is different from what you said.

I must have misread, my apologies. I guess it's time to take a break.

The "I don't understand while my home country is going to shit and why people can't afford houses anymore" post.

This comment brought to you by Quantitative Easing.

> Taxes are pretty much always based on residency

IIRC, most countries with income tax tax by where income is earned (that is, where the work is done) by default, not residency, though many have tax treaties with each other that assign income earned by residents of a foreign country in the other treaty partner back to the country of residence.

Tax domicile laws are often in effect only after 180-something days in most developed countries. For example, imagine you are moving after 270 from e.g. Croatia with 12% tax rate to Germany with 42% tax rate. The 90 days you are making money in Germany can be still taxed in Croatia.

Doesn't it cost a lot though? I see ads for Golden Visa for 10-20k AED a year

Fees were like $3k last time I checked, likely higher when using some external agency. Still peanuts compared to savings from 0% taxes (assuming high income in EU).

Its good for creating a estonian compagny with tax benefits no ?

> For instance, if you live in Estonia, you can use an Estonian limited liability company to manage all your investments without paying any taxes at all, as long as you don't withdraw any money from it.

How much is the tax, when I withdraw the money?

20% flat rate.