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Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by brookst on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @09:38AM (#33623678)
Still. He’d have to have the same normal.dot, make the same space/tab choices, same fonts, etc.

And in a large company, how many ~1 page letters get printed? What are the odds that there is only a single match in the entire company?

I take this story similar to the binary coded space story: more likely to be apocryphal and promoted to deter future leakers than true stories about catching them in the past.

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by Firmwarrior on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:32AM (#33624739)
Could be the case that there were only a handful of things printed at the whole company in a week, considering how obsolete paper has been getting
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by lr4444lr on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:39AM (#33624863)
Perhaps it wasn't an exact byte match, but close enough to only 1 print job size within a reasonable time frame.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by barelysapient on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:19AM (#33625632)
Exactly this. If you know that its around 36kb, and had to be printed between two dates, the list narrows substantially. And more than likely, the printer queue or corporate compliance tools had additional functionality that made such a search trivial.

I have my own story about this: In the early 2010's I had a boss that loved to call us and check in every day. We were a remote team and he had anxiety that we were all larking off. I later learned his technique was to open the dropbox admin tools to see the location of someone before calling them. "So, BarelySapient, where are you working at today?", he'd ask in a jovial tone. But in reality, he was testing employee for truthfulness. Every call. He later fired one of my co-workers when they reported to be working from home, but dropbox reported them somewhere in the Florida keys....

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by mschuster91 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @12:06PM (#33626562)
... and here I'm just happy about German employee and EU data protection laws. This kind of abuse would be plainly illegal here and entitle the employee to significant compensation.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by simondotau on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @04:15PM (#33630740)
What part would be illegal?
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by rurp on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:56AM (#33626355)
Certainly possible, but also relies on the assumption that this was done on company equipment. When leaking info under a vindictive boss I would think opsec rule #1 is avoid company equipment as much as possible. Even without a printer at home, it's quite easy to send a print job to a local office or shipping store.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by zdragnar on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @01:18PM (#33627860)
Data exfiltration is an extremely dangerous risk in the world of corporate espionage, especially for a company like Tesla that is trying to be first to market with something as massive as FSD.

There is no way I would send anything to an external print shop from company equipment; they are almost certainly on top of that as well.

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by rurp on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @01:50PM (#33628446)
This has gotten me genuinely curious, I wonder what the safest way to get a document like that onto your own device is. Printing it on a work printer doesn't seem ideal, but I don't really know what the best approach is. Maybe emailing it to an outside address or sharing it as a document via Dropbox or similar? Copying to physical storage? All of those seem fairly easy to monitor as well though.

If any infosec experts feel like chiming in I'd love to learn more.

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by OkayPhysicist on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @02:31PM (#33629143)
Anything done on a corporate machine needs to be assumed monitored. The paranoid approach would be to fully power off the machine, take the hard drive out, then use an independent machine to mount and read the data off that. Now, if they suspect that approach, or they suspect you personally, there will likely be evidence of your hardware tampering. But it would thwart automated mass-surveillance solutions.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by Sohcahtoa82 on Thursday November 17, 2022 @04:00PM (#33645608)
Hard drive encryption makes this difficult.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by brookst on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @02:33PM (#33629185)
Take photo of screen with phone camera, carry it home, OCR. If you're really paranoid you don't want to send the document's bytes off your system or use any unusual program (e.g. steganography) to edit them.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by zdragnar on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @01:58PM (#33628560)
It will always be a game of cat and mouse. Your protections for leaking are limited to legal whistleblower protections against retaliation, so odds are anything suggested here will potentially be traceable or suspicious, which may invite further scrutiny.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by Sohcahtoa82 on Thursday November 17, 2022 @04:06PM (#33645705)
> Maybe emailing it to an outside address

Easily detected.

> sharing it as a document via Dropbox or similar

If you use a TLS-inspecting proxy/VPN, this will be detected. Otherwise, it depends on how much monitoring is going on, but at best they could suspect it.

> Copying to physical storage?

At my work, USB drives are disabled by MDM.

You could use transfer the files over SSH. Even if you have an MitM SSH-inspecting VPN, once the SSH channel is established, you could tunnel a second SSH connection through the established insecure SSH session.

Even then, with enough logging, you could detect that all local files were accessed sequentially which would raise a red flag.

There's nothing you can do to prevent insider espionage that wouldn't raise false positives and block legitimate work, but you could at least detect it.

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by B1FF_PSUVM on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @01:59PM (#33628580)
Sheesh, Tesla FSD would be even worse than the "secret Coca-Cola formula", no one would even want to be in the same computer with it.

Now, production cost figures and schedules ...

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by zakki on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @01:27PM (#33628030)
Or take A picture of the letter Or retype the letter using leaker’s own smartphone.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by jstarfish on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @03:00PM (#33629632)
Ironically, we had an employee appear to exfiltrate data through a print shop. They almost got away with it unnoticed.

The USB stick they used to make the transfer contracted ransomware from the public terminal, which put everyone on high alert when it was next introduced into the corporate network.

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by HPsquared on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:44AM (#33624968)
Is that so unlikely? They would be on the same network, same configuration.
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by jjk166 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:46AM (#33625023)
I would imagine any two computers at Tesla have a very good chance of having identical normal.dot, and font can be determined by looking at the letter. For a letter, who is using tabs for anything but the start of paragraphs? Even if it's not perfect, it's unlikely to change the size of a word document (which is likely <25 kB to begin with) by a full kilobyte.

Basically all it would tell you is the number of word documents with approximately the same amount of text were printed, plus or minus about a paragraph. Letters aren't frequently printed and the contents of the leak would almost certainly limit the number of suspects to a small handful of people. It's not hard at all to believe that in a group of ~50 people and a time window of ~1 week you might only have one even close match.

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by FerociousTimes on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:20AM (#33625653)
> I take this story similar to the binary coded space story: more likely to be apocryphal and promoted to deter future leakers than true stories about catching them in the past.

Or have a printer at home on stand-by for your leak press releases. If I were Musk, I would have fired him not for being a snitch, but for his/her sloppiness and overall carelessness and lack of discipline.

Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by Gordonjcp on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @12:02PM (#33626483)
It's probably not the only bit of evidence. "Hmm, it's about the same size, it was printed at about the right time and... yeah it sounds like *that* guy, let's see what else he printed - oh, nothing? Cool."
Re:Tesla has used space characters in internal emails to ide... by boringg on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @12:47PM (#33627287)
You could filter on time and size and then get a subset of likely candidates and whittle it down to the expected people.