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Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by konstruktor on Friday December 16, 2011 @03:11AM (#3359953)
"So, with all due respect, I hope he is wrong in his beliefs about the after life because if there is a heaven he's surely earned his place in it."

"all due respect" cannot change the fact that this is the most disrespectful thing you can write at the death of an atheist.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by JeremyBanks on Friday December 16, 2011 @06:01AM (#3360339)
That's absurd. I'm an Atheist but I'd readily echo that statement. It's an expression of appreciation. If you find it insulting that's only your own eagerness to find insult, nothing legitimate.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by Tloewald on Friday December 16, 2011 @06:53AM (#3360431)
I'd go further and suggest that a lot of atheists would echo the hope that there is some kind of fabulous immortality beyond the grave, it's just that the concept is, upon examination, absurd.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by redthrowaway on Friday December 16, 2011 @05:00PM (#3362526)
Eternal life holds no interest for me. Imagine living a million years, seeing and thinking all there is to see and think, then living a billion years after that. Then you realize that you're precisely 0% of the way to the finish line. Long after the heat death of the universe, a consciousness with nothing to cogitate.

No thanks.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by Tloewald on Friday December 16, 2011 @11:13PM (#3363357)
You're making a lot of assumptions there. The idea that there are finite number of possible thoughts is highly improbable given the number of things there aren't finite numbers of.

If you argue from a base mechanics point of view (e.g. Your brain is basically a hard drive with n bits of storage an thus can only enter 2^n states) then you're assuming that in this hypothetical afterlife your physical limitations are maintained. Since your basic assumptions about the universe have been demonstrated to be wrong, assuming this particular assumption will be correct is drawing a very long bow. And the initial assumption is very much in doubt.

To my mind an atheist is someone who has yet to encounter a plausible religion, not (a) someone who defines their beliefs in opposition to one religion (e.g. I do not believ heaven is a green pasture populated by angels playing harps and dead Christians tending sheep) or (b) someone who is closed to the possibility that a plausible religion might exist.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by redthrowaway on Saturday December 17, 2011 @03:19AM (#3363801)
>Since your basic assumptions about the universe have been demonstrated to be wrong

That's ambitious of you.

>To my mind an atheist is someone who has yet to encounter a plausible religion

In principle, were a plausible religion to present itself, I would weigh it on the evidence. In the real world, the vast number of religions, none of which are plausible, combined with the demonstrated ability of science to explain the universe through natural causes, leaves no doubt in my mind that there is no supernatural creator.

As for an afterlife, the complete and utter lack of evidence or argument in favor of it consigns it to the realm of all other fairy tales. As such, I treat it as a thought experiment more than as a proposed state of the Universe. If there is an afterlife, either it's eternal or it isn't. If it is, it is boring beyond belief. If it isn't, then what have you "gained"? Sure, it'd be nice to have a few thousand years to think, but I'd far prefer telekinesis and control over the flow of time. Since the propositions of my having superpowers and my consciousness enduring after my neurons stop firing have equal chance of coming true, I'll stick with the fantasies that tickle my pickle.

Your a) scenario is easily dismissed: I think all religions are equally silly; some have just been around long enough and are familiar enough for their silliness to become engrained. As for b) I am not closed to the possibility in principle. As I said, I simply view it as vanishingly unlikely. I have a better chance of winning the lottery three times in a row than of any religion predicated upon the supernatural being "true".

You say "an atheist is someone who has yet to encounter a plausible religion". That implies that we're waiting for the right one, like a home buyer who's only been shown hovels. That's simply not the case. I am not, in practice, open to the possibility of a god; I think the whole notion is absurd. In the same vein, I am not open to the possibility of homeopathy being effective treatment for anything other than thirst. Certainly, were science to show that it was, in fact, effective, I would change my mind. That does not imply that I'm waiting to find the right kind of water to cure fibromyalgia.

PS: To quickly address your point:

>The idea that there are finite number of possible thoughts is highly improbable given the number of things there aren't finite numbers of.

I never meant to imply there were a finite number of things. Hell, you could count for all eternity and never run out of numbers. That does not imply there are an infinite number of things worth thinking about.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by mikeash on Saturday December 17, 2011 @11:52AM (#3364542)
What do you call someone who is closed to the possibility that a plausible religion might exist? I consider myself an atheist and I find the term "plausible religion" to be inherently contradictory. If it's plausible then it's no longer religion. Much like how "alternative medicine" that works becomes simply "medicine", religion that is plausible (as in, there's actually some reason to think it might be true) simply becomes science.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by nske on Sunday December 18, 2011 @10:36AM (#3366770)
hm, what if, let's say, someone came and started doing so-called miracles -raising people from the dead and such. If you witnessed first-hand those miracles in a way that left no room to doubt their validity (i.e., they were done in a controlled environment) and you were completely certain they could not be justified by current scientific understanding, wouldn't it be likely to take the leap and consider his claims plausible (provided, at least, they had internal consistency)?

If so, then one would only need to demonstrate a sufficiently impressive failure of current scientific understanding to account for some events that would appear to be caused by his actions, in order to push what would be considered a plausible religion.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by redthrowaway on Sunday December 18, 2011 @04:37PM (#3367560)
"Miracles" wouldn't be evidence of the divine unless science was, in principle and permanently, incapable of explaining them. If the laws of physics were changed or ignored in order to perform some feat which was explicitly an attempt to prove the existence of the divine, then sure. If, however, a long-dead person were to spring from the grave and perform a jig, scientists would be (to borrow from the vulgar vernacular) "all over that shit". Even so, the mere existence of permanently inexplicable phenomena is evidence only of the strangeness of the universe, and not of a conscious omnimpotence behind it.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by nske on Saturday December 24, 2011 @03:19AM (#3388519)
I don't disagree.

I might be mistaken about the use of the word "plausible", but I think it is not necessarily connected with evidence but with human perception. Of course rational people would only find plausible explanations that are backed with evidence, but even the most hardcore rationalists are subject to their own psychology and emotions.

My argument is that in a (completely unlike, hypothetical) scenario like the one I describe, most people would likely find plausible what that someone would claim (if it did not sound completely stupid) not because it would be the reasonable thing to do but because psychologically those acts would feel too imposing, if science could not explain them at the time.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by mikeash on Sunday December 18, 2011 @12:43PM (#3367035)
If those miracles occurred and were scientifically verifiable as you say, then they become part of science, not religion. Certainly it may throw a lot of existing science into doubt, but that's what science is all about. If we can test and verify those miracles then they aren't religion anymore, and the people who are going to provide the explanations for how the miracles work and what they can do won't be priests, they'll be scientists.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by joske2 on Friday December 16, 2011 @07:32AM (#3360511)
Honestly, I hope there isn't immortality in heaven beyond the grave. Forever is a really long time. The first 1000 years in heaven might be interesting. The billion years after that? meh
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by JeremyBanks on Friday December 16, 2011 @07:56AM (#3360561)
Heaven does seems rather boring. However if we allow ourselves more creativity than scripture, we don't need to assume that eternal life must be dull.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/xy/the_fun_theory_sequence/

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by rimantas on Friday December 16, 2011 @08:41AM (#3360636)
An appreciation by denying that the guy was saying all the time? Some strange kind of appreciation.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by vacri on Friday December 16, 2011 @03:30AM (#3360009)
"I think that guy has a place in heaven" is much less disrespectful to an atheist than "fuck that guy, he's a bastard". It's an acknowledgement of a noble opponent.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by ugh on Friday December 16, 2011 @04:10AM (#3360092)
No, it's peddling your beliefs disguised as a noble statement.

I cannot and do not want to speak for Hitchens so I will only speak for myself. My view is that believing in an afterlife is crazy and absurd. (Don't get me wrong: I would love there to be some sort of way for my existence to continue after death. I'm terrified of death. Just wishing for there to be an afterlife doesn't make it happen, though.) I think it is very much distepectful to say things you know the person would have thought of as crazy and absurd when commenting their death.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by StavrosK on Friday December 16, 2011 @07:43AM (#3360535)
Wait, you just said you hope there's an afterlife, and so did the GP. Where's the objection?
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by ugh on Friday December 16, 2011 @02:39PM (#3361961)
I do not hope for an afterlife. To hope for an afterlife is akin to (and just as stupid as) hoping to win the lottery, only a lot less likely.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by SamReidHughes on Friday December 16, 2011 @03:23AM (#3359985)
No it's not. Why wouldn't an atheist want an afterlife?
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by olavk on Friday December 16, 2011 @07:07AM (#3360462)
The christian concept of heaven is not very attractive if you are not a christian.

While there are different interpretations, the common is that heaven is an eternal non-physical state of being together with God (the god of the Bible), perhaps even "absorbed" by this god.

The god of the Bible is racist, jaloux, blood-thirsty and opposed to critical thinking, and among other things calls for human sacrifice, genocide and killing babies. (Read the Bible if you dont believe me.)

Now, if you are christian you might think this is all justified and fair, but for an atheist, an eternity of being together with this being (without any possibility of rebellion or critical thinking) might seem more like a never ending nightmare.

Furthermore, it is generally agreed that there is no kind of physical pleasure in the heaven - no sex, no sunshine or rain, no books, no Johnny Walker Black Label. The only pleasure is being together with and eternally worshipping the aforementioned god. Who would in good conscience wish this for Hitchens?

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by euroclydon on Friday December 16, 2011 @09:59AM (#3360856)
Has it occurred to you that if God created everything, than the standard by which you're judging heaven might be short sighted?

I like to think there might be little racism and infanticide and much discourse on creating universes.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by redthrowaway on Saturday December 17, 2011 @03:40AM (#3363829)
No description of the afterlife given by any of the major religions appeals to me, save perhaps Buddhism from a mystical standpoint. If we want to start conjecturing beyond what anyone says the afterlife is like, then why believe in it at all? Without evidence, the only thing any of the religions claim to have going for them is holy books and priests claiming divine knowledge. If you want to ignore those, then you're just pulling ideas out of thin air. It might be nice to imagine some utopic afterlife for each person, but it has precisely the same relationship with fact as my desire to drop into the worlds of books I read and take part in the story.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by swah on Friday December 16, 2011 @07:54AM (#3360557)
Fuck you (you representing anti-christian trolling in general in HN).
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by Udo on Friday December 16, 2011 @08:22AM (#3360602)
Atheism is a very broad category. It just means you don't believe in any gods. The people who belong to that category, and their philosophies, are wildly different. You can't draw a lot of conclusions just from knowing someone is an atheist.

I'm an atheist myself and I do find the idea of an afterlife extremely compelling. The tragedy here is that I'm also enough of a scientist to know that the odds of there being any kind of afterlife are vastly against us. So there is probably a group of atheists who, like myself, wish for an afterlife but at the same time know that wishing doesn't make it true. The universe doesn't really care whether a couple of carbon-based molecules change their state and it, sadly, doesn't care about the information stored in our brains either.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by numeromancer on Friday December 16, 2011 @09:21AM (#3360750)
"The tragedy here is that I'm also enough of a scientist to know that the odds of there being any kind of afterlife are vastly against us."

You presume, of course, that these things apply to the dead. But when dead, materially, you can reason about nothing because the bases for reason, perception and memory, no longer exist. Seeing yourself as disanimated material after you die is a trick of the mind, and not one that comes naturally, but that is learned in training as a part of survival in your time and place. But in many ways, to yourself, you are unlike anyone else, and in these ways you can conclude nothing about your dead self from your perception and memory of all others that have died.

In short, you can conclude nothing about yourself when dead. Even the laws of physics and nature are not a help to determining the nature of your dead self; these are artifacts of perception and memory.

I do not claim that we have hope for life after death, whatever that means; I only claim that for the living it is, and will likely always be, the "horror of the shade", the mystery of mysteries, and why music and poetry are as important to human beings as science and reason.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by jpulgarin on Friday December 16, 2011 @03:26AM (#3359992)
Christopher has stated multiple times that he finds the Christian idea of heaven unappealing.

Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn implies that Christian doctrine is true), Christopher is most certainly in hell.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by tspiteri on Friday December 16, 2011 @03:56AM (#3360059)
> Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn implies that Christian doctrine is true), Christopher is most certainly in hell.

If the Christian heaven does exist, it does not imply that all Christian doctrine is true, only that some is true.

And there is a lot of contradictory Christian doctrine. By that, I am not saying that Christian doctrine is self-contradictory, I am only pointing out that several different Christian denominations have doctrines that contradict each other. According to some denominations, Hitchens would indeed be in hell, and according to others, he would be in heaven.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by jpulgarin on Friday December 16, 2011 @04:14AM (#3360101)
Instead of "which in turn" I should have said, "and further assuming", sorry about that.

I am almost certain that there are some Christian denominations under which Christopher is now believed to be in heaven, although they are in the minority, and not in the mainstream of Christianity that Hitchens usually debated against. Can you name me two Christian denominations according to whom Christopher is now in heaven?

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by tspiteri on Friday December 16, 2011 @04:28AM (#3360131)
I do not know much about different Christian denominations, but I do come from a Catholic background myself, and I guess Catholicism does qualify as mainstream. I think that according to current Catholic doctrine, if someone does his best to find out the truth, and lives according to what he sincerely believes, he goes to heaven, even if he's wrong in the end. And I think Hitchens qualifies for those qualities (to be clear: I am referring to his doing his best to find out the truth and living according to it, not to being wrong in the end).
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by jpulgarin on Friday December 16, 2011 @05:00AM (#3360205)
In Catholic doctrine one who commits a mortal sin without repenting is bound to hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin#Roman_Catholicism

If you look at the three conditions that a sin must meet to be considered a mortal sin, I think there is a very high probability that writing a book titled God Is Not Great is a mortal sin. There are hundreds of things that Christopher did which very likely meet those conditions, and there is also a high probability that he has not repented about them before death.

According to Catholicism people do not get into heaven by living according to what they sincerely believe, and many, many, Catholic scholars would say that Christopher is bound for hell.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by tspiteri on Friday December 16, 2011 @05:35AM (#3360280)
The three conditions for a mortal sin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin

1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.

2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).

3. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

The question is about point 2. While Hitchens knew that it would be morally unacceptable according to Catholic doctrine, he considered writing the book as the right thing to do according to his own moral standard, so he would not be doing something he considered as a gravely wrong thing to do. Similarly for other people who live according to what they sincerely believe: they are not committing actions with full knowledge that the actions are the wrong thing to do.

It does leave room for interpretation, and can be argued both ways, but I do not wish to be drawn further into a religious discussion.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by mattdeboard on Friday December 16, 2011 @07:00AM (#3360447)
Cool thread, I like the new CSS layout of Reddit here.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by masklinn on Friday December 16, 2011 @04:21AM (#3360116)
> Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn implies that Christian doctrine is true), Christopher is most certainly in hell.

It's much more complex than that as there is no single "Christian doctrine" (each christian sect has its own doctrine, including concepts of hell, and these doctrines evolve over time). Some christian sects promise hell to all non-convers (and sinners), while others consider only acts and make devotion irrelevant to entry in heavens.

I'm not going to make judgement calls on the hitch or these doctrines, but "Christian doctrine" being true absolutely does not translate into "Christopher is most certainly in hell". Let alone "the Christian heaven" existing (the "Christian" heaven being real) translates into this ("Christian heaven" could be true while everything else is false)

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by protomyth on Friday December 16, 2011 @06:38PM (#3362815)
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by michael_dorfman on Friday December 16, 2011 @03:29AM (#3360003)
I can't speak for others, but this atheist doesn't want one.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by corin_ on Friday December 16, 2011 @05:09AM (#3360223)
I also don't want one, but if someone said "I hope there's a heaven so that he will have gone to it" after I'm dead I wouldn't call that disrespectful in the slightest.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by borispavlovic on Friday December 16, 2011 @03:31AM (#3360013)
Because we don't need it. Our genes are reproduced and they are carrying the best and the worst parts of us and our experience.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by emil0r on Friday December 16, 2011 @03:56AM (#3360058)
Your children carries your experiences?
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by jarin on Friday December 16, 2011 @04:02PM (#3362301)
If you raise them.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by emil0r on Saturday December 17, 2011 @04:40AM (#3363907)
1) The OP made the claim that our genes carry our experiences onto our children. I've never experienced that and AFAIK it doesn't happen.

2) Raising a child doesn't give the child your experiences either. I have no memory of what my father experienced in his life based on him raising me. AFAIK it doesn't happen to other people either.

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by abdulhaq on Friday December 16, 2011 @07:18AM (#3360483)
I find that a stimulating comment because for me, not one tiny iota of what is good and bad about us comes from our genes. Our genes are the cards we are dealt with when we are born. How good and bad we are is seen in how we respond to that initial start. To say it's our genes that make us good sounds close to the stream of thought that believes in certain races being 'better' than others etc.
Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by rimantas on Friday December 16, 2011 @08:42AM (#3360640)
Because he sees it as celestial North Korea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nIRJVmZ4K8

Re:In Memoriam: Christopher Hitchens, 1949–2011 by khafra on Friday December 16, 2011 @07:58AM (#3360563)
Isaac is up in heaven now.