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Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by spamizbad on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:19PM (#33599419)
Makes me wonder what’s going on at Jane Street. How sure are we they’re above board?
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by whimsicalism on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:32PM (#33599621)
Maybe you should spend a moment researching rather than using some nebulous transitive property of "if they hired this person, they must also be a scam."

Jane St is a prop trading firm - the only money they have to lose is their own.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by thepasswordis on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:38PM (#33599718)
Alameda was supposedly a prop trading firm too.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by whimsicalism on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:40PM (#33599764)
FTX is the one who lost their customers' money.

Jane St is fully above board and has no such associated firm managing customer money.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by paganel on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:47PM (#33599862)
One of the biggest financial frauds of this century has just been perpetrated by two young people that used to work for them, the questioning related to "how did Jane Street hire these people" is perfectly logical.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by hahaxdxd123 on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:59PM (#33600073)
Well the interview process is more or less "are you good at probability puzzles and games somewhat related to trading."

A plausible story to me is that they were good at whatever they screen for in the interview and then at Jane Street they made a bunch of money. Then they attributed too much of that to themselves and not enough to whatever institutional processes and risk frameworks they benefited from. They bring themselves but not those processes to their own trading firm, and then boom!

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by MrMan on Monday November 14, 2022 @03:10PM (#33600235)
I worked on quant buy side for a long time and you dont just automatically come out of these places knowing one secret to making money trading. equally smart on paper people might be working on message passing, risk management, data analysis, special projects, also trading, simulator, database, and might spend 5 years in-house and not come away from the experience with knowledge which by itself represented major alpha.

for me just knowing how to setup a quant trading firm, how to choose prime brokers, how to find and select vendors, leased lines, how to setup paper work, cap intro relationships, exchange memberships, FIX certs, are of equal value as alpha tricks, and really I dont even see a lot of evidence that the Almeda / FTX people were particularly well-seasoned in any respect.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by tedunangst on Monday November 14, 2022 @03:45PM (#33600755)
Did they work in the risk management back office at JS?
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by paganel on Monday November 14, 2022 @03:53PM (#33600851)
The Societe Generale guy that managed to lose 5 billion euros for the bank through "breach of trust and forgery" (to quote wikipedia [1]) didn't work in the risk management department. I don't think that was any consolation for the bank's stakeholders.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_Kerviel

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by tedunangst on Monday November 14, 2022 @05:09PM (#33601976)
Actually he had worked in compliance, and then they moved him to front office. Extremely dangerous. Not recommended.

But the point is you can't infer anything about Jane Street risk controls from people who didn't have that role.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by paganel on Monday November 14, 2022 @06:11PM (#33602725)
> Jane Street risk controls from people who didn't have that role.

I'm talking about the Jane Street risk control people not being able to filter out two of the biggest fraudsters of this century. Yes, I know that, technically, the Jane Street risk control people most probably only focus on the risky stuff that might bring their house down, and, as such, they most probably wash their hands when it comes to the deeds of their former employees, but I was under the impression that when those sort of shops hire someone there's also a general screening for "is this a guy/lady that is going to swindle billions of dollars in the near future"?

And, to be honest, I guess that's what the cachet of people like SBF was, especially in a very deregulated and wild market like crypto is. More exactly "normal" people would have thought along the lines of: "this guy has worked for Jane Street -> I've read Jane Street are cool, honest people, so they must have done some vetting of their employees -> SBF most probably won't run with my money".

More generally speaking, as you most probably well know, the whole house of finance is built on trust and trust alone. That goes for crypto, that goes for traders like JS, that goes for boring money market funds, that goes for the FED itself (probably with trust decreasing from Fed -> to MMFs -> to traders -> to crypto).

When such swindlers like SBF and Caroline Ellison both happen to have worked at any one entity that's part of that chain of trust that I mentioned, then said entity can't just wash its hand saying "well, we checked out on them, they were fine when they used to work for us", it doesn't work like that. People will start asking themselves: "Are there other swindlers now working for JS that JS has failed to catch during its vetting process? If yes, do they risk bringing the whole JS house down?".

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by tedunangst on Monday November 14, 2022 @09:07PM (#33604383)
Not sure what you think risk control does, but they don't strap traders into the brainwave reader to filter out people with evil souls.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by whimsicalism on Monday November 14, 2022 @09:18PM (#33604445)
GP is living in minority report world
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by paganel on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:12PM (#33614352)
Well, then we're going to have SBFs and Kervels going well into the future. Kervel was 5 billion, SBF is, what, 10 to 15 billion, going by the same progression in 5 years' or 10 years' time the next guy is going to swindle 30 billion or so.

All the while the IBs and the algo traders and all those fancy financial shops will keep saying: "how could we have known? We're not mind-readers! These are not our people!". Madness.

Also, by "JS risk control" people I was not only thinking about the spreadsheet guys. I hope to the gods of Mammon that there still is some sense of "is this guy trustful? Does he belong in this trust-based industry?" active inside of those firms, and, no, I don't expect the spreadsheet guys from credit risk to be in charge of it.

If you're telling me that "no, there's no such department in any of those institutions! Any crook can get hired as long as he passes the technical interview" then I think the industry has a whole has a big f.ing problem.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by biggoodwolf on Monday November 14, 2022 @03:58PM (#33600940)
The founder of EA got SBF in. That's another can of worms but that guy apparently changed his last name from Crouch to McAuskil or whatever...
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by telotortium on Monday November 14, 2022 @04:30PM (#33601439)
How would Will MacAskill have enough sway to get SBF in Jane Street? Also, why would that matter? I have absolutely no reason to believe SBF couldn't pass their interviews.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by typon on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:51PM (#33599924)
It's not about losing other people's money only. What I'm worried about is: are extremely over-leveraged and able to get the returns they have by doing tax and regulatory dodges that their competitors aren't participating in? Did SBF learn how to operate in the financial world from seeing how Jane Street operates?
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by whimsicalism on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:53PM (#33599975)
They are a high frequency market maker. They are not a hedge fund.

They make money from the pennies in the spread, many many many times over. They are not making over-leveraged big bets.

I encourage you to talk to anyone who works in market-making finance.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by ralph84 on Monday November 14, 2022 @04:11PM (#33601142)
Being a market maker doesn't exempt a firm from blowing itself up. See Knight Capital.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by whimsicalism on Monday November 14, 2022 @04:20PM (#33601283)
Knight Capital was traded (so taking other people's money).

Let's also try not to conflate "blowing up" with actual fraud. Traders are free to lose all of their own money, and doing so is not fraud

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by ralph84 on Monday November 14, 2022 @04:43PM (#33601612)
Knight was the largest market maker on NASDAQ and NYSE at the time they blew up so if you're going to use "they're just a market maker" as a defense for JS you can't dismiss Knight as "oh, not THAT kind of market maker." And Knight was known for plenty of shady activity like front running and spoofing.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by whimsicalism on Monday November 14, 2022 @04:51PM (#33601739)
Knight did not blow up due to fraud, so they were not "below board." Losing money is not against the law.

Furthermore, Jane St only trades their own capital - ie. not capital deposited by customers in an exchange and not capital provided by selling ownership stakes of itself on a public market. This is a clear distinction from Knight.

It's as if some guy just had a bunch of money, traded it and made some more money, hired a bunch of people to keep trading it, and it has made a ton of great returns and people are asking: is this a scam?

Who would it be scamming? The only suckers are this guy.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by 22SAS on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:53PM (#33599981)
I work in the trading industry. These people had short tenures at JS, especially Ellison. They weren't seasoned senior traders making big decisions. JS, unlike Alameda, has been in the business for 20+ years and have been very profitable for most of their existence.

It would be worrisome if most of Alameda was full of ex-JS traders, who had been there for 7+ years.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by oldgradstudent on Monday November 14, 2022 @06:39PM (#33603036)
> Jane St is a prop trading firm - the only money they have to lose is their own.

Unless they use leverage, which they all do. Then, they can easily lose their lenders (or options buyers, etc.) lots of money.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by typon on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:26PM (#33599523)
This is what I have been thinking. This whole thing has soured in my mind: Jane Street, Effective Altruism. Crypto, VCs, Silicon Valley culture in general I already assumed are scummy.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by ilrwbwrkhv on Monday November 14, 2022 @02:31PM (#33599605)
You got it. That is the correct line to follow. Sequoia in particular must be heavily investigated.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by neilparikh on Monday November 14, 2022 @03:25PM (#33600485)
> Effective Altruism

The practical version of Effective Altruism for most people is essentially "if you're well off, you should donate a chunk of your income to buying anti-malaria bed nets/deworming medicine/direct cash transfers for the global poor". I don't see how that could "sour" in your mind, seems like a fairly unreservedly good thing.

I want to point out that there are real people [1] being helped by Effective Altruism right now. Telling them "sorry, can't help you any more, some rich asshole in the US just committed a scam, and he claimed he wanted to help you too" just seems incredibly petty and cruel to me.

[1] - This is also a group that traditionally doesn't receive much attention either.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by freejazz on Monday November 14, 2022 @06:22PM (#33602862)
This is why so many people find EA annoying. People donated to malaria causes well before EA was a thing, but of course now, without EA, there's nothing.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by hestefisk on Monday November 14, 2022 @08:57PM (#33604288)
I find it very annoying. Why I’ rely on the benevolence of a few rich people when you can do the same much more effectively with proper taxation and wealth redistribution.
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by neilparikh on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @04:10AM (#33606952)
> proper taxation and wealth redistribution

All the mainstream political suggestions for taxation/wealth distribution focus on correcting wealth inequalities within a rich nation. Very few (if any) suggest redistributing from wealthy western nations to the global poor.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by freejazz on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:15PM (#33612031)
Neither does EA, they just suggest rich people donate sometimes...
Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by neilparikh on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @04:06AM (#33606929)
I don’t think upper-middle class programmers were donating much before EA.

Obviously AMF has been around before EA, the big difference is the additional amount of money it’s been able to deploy. I personally know many people (including me!) who started donating significantly because of EA.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by Yizahi on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @04:29AM (#33607089)
"if you're well off, you should donate a chunk of your income to buying anti-malaria bed nets/deworming medicine/direct cash transfers for the global poor" (c)

Isn't it against EA ethos? Helping some people right now, right here? I read some posts about this movement, and from them it seemed like EAs are more interested in the far off stuff - developing benevolent AI, transumanism, space travel, gene vaults, terraforming, Mars colonisation etc. (there is nothing wrong with these activities). Because helping people right now is "just" altruism, not effective altruism.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by neilparikh on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @05:37PM (#33631892)
The longtermist EAs do suggest that, but by dollar donated, the more traditional global health stuff is still a large chunk of what EA do.

> I read some posts about this movement, and from them it seemed like EAs are more interested in the far off stuff

You can’t really use that as a metric to judge the movement, since there’s only so much one can write about “donate money to AMF”, but you can write pages and pages about the far off stuff.

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by astrange on Monday November 14, 2022 @08:48PM (#33604218)
None of those things are Silicon Valley. Can't blame Santa Clara County for none of this.

Jane Street - NYC

EA - Berkeley

Crypto - the Bahamas or something?

VCs - Palo Alto

Re:FTX’s balance sheet was bad by hnfong on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @09:07AM (#33623123)
Palo Alto is literally in Santa Clara Country....

```Palo Alto (/ˌpæloʊ ˈæltoʊ/; Spanish for "tall stick") is a charter city in the northwestern corner of Santa Clara County, California, United States, in the San Francisco Bay Area``` - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Alto,_California