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Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by geoelectric on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:25PM (#33553619)
So, I know a little about this, unfortunately. My "shameful past job" at one point in the 90s was working for a company that basically made small-business CRM+accounting software you could customize to drive any MLM scheme you could think up.

Amway's not the best example, since they actually sell real goods and because Amway's sellers' best customers have almost always been the sellers themselves. In other words, many sellers used it as a way to buy goods at "wholesale" and never really had any intention of reselling them. At one point, I think that was even part of the Amway pitch, particularly at the time they were inexplicably popular for their (expensive and therefore in theory a better deal discounted) water treatment products.

I don't think there's a price advantage there compared to Costco or online, though--much of what made Amway fade into the background starting in the mid 90s.

So too Stella Dot, Mary Kay, Cutco/Vector, probably Herbalife and even Transamerica, etc. They sell real stuff, whether or not the pricing makes sense, and you can technically turn a profit on it, whether or not the market is really there, so they're not technically considered a pyramid scheme in the scam/illegal sense.

Now, I'm not saying they're good ideas--at all--and they absolutely operate on hype and pipe dream every bit as much as those awful timeshare presentations. They have the same exponential market saturation issue as any pyramid scheme and the same diminishing returns--but they are generally not considered fraudulent, just obnoxious.

The really awful pyramid schemes mostly just sell "new seller kits" to prospective targets that teach them how to sell "new seller kits" to their targets, have no real product or way to make a profit, and the entire rollup is those kits and other overhead fees. They're the financial equivalent of a chain letter.

I'm pretty sure those do get action taken against them if they're identified. The biggest problem there is most are pretty small, take a bunch of people's money, then burn out once it's all rolled to the top ranks who founded the scheme and new marks aren't easy to find.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by girvo on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:51PM (#33553941)
While I understand your point, I think society should treat all of this as a distinction without a difference. Herbalife et al. should not be allowed to prey on the vulnerable, regardless of if they happen to sell a “real” product or not. It’s not a real business selling a real product.

Other countries rightfully have seen it this way for some for the companies under discussion.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by geoelectric on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:00PM (#33554085)
I'd be fine with a new definition that made them illegal, or at least put such heavy truth-in-advertising laws on them that nobody in their right mind would bite given the real numbers you can expect. They're absolutely exploitative.

I probably made the mistake of speaking a little too specifically for the US situation, though. Here, the criteria are (modulo nuance) roughly what I said for the FTC to care.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by bombcar on Thursday November 10, 2022 @07:06PM (#33555554)
I thought some government office made them disclose how many people made how much, but it doesn’t really do much to shut down the scams.

At some point you have to give up.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by tomcam on Thursday November 10, 2022 @11:21PM (#33557278)
My heart agrees with you. My brain demands a way to define vulnerable in a legally and Constitutionally acceptable way.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by bryanrasmussen on Friday November 11, 2022 @03:56AM (#33558542)
I guess a starting step would be people with psychiatric ailments or learning disabilities. I knew a couple that had both between them and spent all their time trying desperately to survive while falling for every scheme out there. This was America in the early 90s and they were in their late 40s so surely dead by now, because nobody survives to an old age in the U.S with that kind of weakness.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by sokoloff on Friday November 11, 2022 @05:39AM (#33559087)
At what point should the government step in and take away the right of a citizen to enter into contracts?

I had an aunt for whom this would have been (and was) the case, but she was 1 in 50K level of mentally incapable.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by nerdponx on Friday November 11, 2022 @06:17AM (#33559357)
What about taking away the ability of a corporation to offer them contracts? I hesitate to call that a "right".
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by sokoloff on Friday November 11, 2022 @07:07AM (#33559750)
When you take away one side’s ability to enter into certain contracts, you take away the other side’s as well.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by themagician on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:55PM (#33554001)
It's a great example. Sued many times in many regions. Unable to operate in some countries where they aren't able to pay off politicians and government bodies. Founders have faced criminal charges in several countries and had assets seized. Fraud, price-fixing, false claims, tax evasion, racketeering, and the list goes on.

It's a great example because there is just so much about it. It's not some obscure company that has never been sued or never been found guilty. It's a company run by people who commit fraud and get away with it because they are just so wealthy.

It is a criminal organization. They have even pled guilty to criminal charges in the past. But somehow they just get to pay a fine and keep on going.

The whole point of my comment wasn't to focus on Amway but just to point out how ineffective the FTC is. Even when the activity is criminal and/or flagrant they are powerless to actually do anything to stop it. At best you get some modified legal jargon.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by geoelectric on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:11PM (#33554240)
Idealistically, I don't disagree. I just meant they're not a great example of something I'd expect the FTC to knock down with a new stance here.

They don't break (current) US laws in terms of being a pyramid--not going to get into their history of fraud, racketeering, etc, which isn't an FTC concern.

Anyway, I know you're basically making a "this cause is more important than that cause " argument, but of course a stricter stance specifically re: being anti-competitive wouldn't touch them at all. They don't lead a market in anything anymore.

What I realistically would expect this to bring down, if anything, is the walled gardens, where they exist on devices that have become so central to our lives that this amounts to broadly restricting what goods or services you're able to consume. The wording of what they released seems very specifically crafted to highlight walled gardens and similar concepts, at least where there's arbitrary action in the name of rent taking happening as well.

I suspect this--along with the anti-competitive payment system decision from the Epic case--is the shot across the bow for Apple and Google to either loosen up on iOS and Android (and very specifically, App Store and Play Store) or be targeted.

That'd be good enough for me, for now. I don't like MLMs either, and this may be a first world problem, but it's a daily one I face.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by themagician on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:23PM (#33554410)
They don't break the laws because they pay off politicians to write them in their favor. A few years ago they tried to make it explicit and get it written into law that they would be exempt from investigation over the whole "pyramid thing" permanently. They failed then, but give it another few years and they will succeed.

The whole walled garden thing is mostly trivial nonsense. At worst Apple and Google will pay a small fine and a few thousand people will be able to more easily sideload some stuff. Maybe. Probably not though. If it gets to this these companies will simply modify the law so that it doesn't apply to them.

Unfair competition is an American virtue these days. Fair competition is seen as "being weak".

Even this policy statement wasn't approved 4-0. It was 3-1. You've got government bodies that are so politically divided that you literally can't even get FOUR people—WHO RUN THE FTC—to agree that on a simply policy statement that basically says, "Unfair Methods of Competition bad." The dissenting commissioner wrote a 20 page book why she doesn't support this.

And you know what? I mostly agree with the dissenting commissioner. Not wholly because of her views, but because in practice this will be used to harass small(er) business. It will have no material impact on Google, Facebook, Amazon, or Apple.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by geoelectric on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:26PM (#33554460)
Your last point is a really good one. We saw that kind of captive behavior with the FCC too, particularly during the last administration with that one yahoo that was running it for awhile.
Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by specialist on Friday November 11, 2022 @02:35PM (#33565644)
I too don't see how an anticompetitive rules can be used to thwart MLMs (like Amway).

But IANAL, so I'd need an ELI5.

Either way, I support overreaching rulesets against gig economy biz models with onerous penalties. eg Repeated radical cashectomies.

Scams like Uber, where Labor has to supply their own Capital to participate, receive no benefits, have no collective bargaining, get shunted into arbitration, and are excluded from profit sharing.

That's just wrong.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by viraptor on Friday November 11, 2022 @07:06AM (#33559741)
> I don't think there's a price advantage there compared to Costco or online

Yeah, my parents bought some amway stuff regularly, because in the 90s outside of the US it was actually a good deal on cleaning products. The closest wholesale mall equivalent for us was ~3h drive away.

Re:FTC Restores Rigorous Enforcement of Law Banning Unfair M... by basch on Friday November 11, 2022 @11:43AM (#33563045)
>They sell real stuff

Whether or not they sell real stuff is a distraction from the real question. To figure out if it is a scam, you need to look at 1) where profits come from (is it from "selling" the product, or is it from recruiting sellers and "selling startup kits".) If most of their money is from people buying "be your own boss and own a business kits" then that is the product. 2) The next question is if that product they are selling (the kit) is a scam or misrepresented pipe dream.

Even if they sell a product, you need to ask if the product is the product. If all the money is from a pyramid of recruiting people to recruit people to buy startup kits, there should be some kind of action taken against them. The distinction becomes more obvious when you look at something like Cutco/Vector, where there is a product company and a marketing kit company.

In essence you can have two identical companies with two identical business models, and one can be a scam and one can not be a scam based on execution. If the business derives profit primary from sales to end customers, then everything is above water. If millions of "own your own businesses" end up with garages full of unsellable product, its a scam.

I recognize this interpretation takes away the agency and culpability from the person who joins a scheme, buys a bunch of stuff in hopefulness, and fails to execute as a salesperson. I also recognize that markets can dry up, and what was once above water can start to look like a scam. But these companies prey on those types of people. And if preying on vulnerable people is your business, its a scam.