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Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by CamelCaseName on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:20PM (#33551638)
It's only a ponzi scheme if you have no underlying business but transferring money between people.

Presumably FTX expected that its risky bets would pay off and that return would then fund the interest promised.

Otherwise, would you consider corporate debt a ponzi scheme?

Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by NickC25 on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:30PM (#33551787)
>Presumably FTX expected that its risky bets would pay off and that return would then fund the interest promised.

So did Bernie.

>Otherwise, would you consider corporate debt a ponzi scheme?

Depends on what you count as corporate debt.

I'd have no problem buying the debt of a mature, massive company like Apple or Microsoft, because they have hard assets, steady cashflows, successful products on the market.

The debt of a zombie corporation with a useless product that was only sustainable due to 0% interest rates? No thanks. Is that a ponzi scheme? Probably not the classical definition of one, but it's ponzi-adjecent.

Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by IanCal on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:36PM (#33551901)
> So did Bernie.

No, he just straight up didn't invest peoples money, he paid out "gains" just from other deposits. That's why it was a Ponzi scheme - that's what they are.

Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by NickC25 on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:45PM (#33552036)
Initially, he did invest their money, he just didn't get the (I believe it was) +/- 10% that he promised investors (and was getting like clockwork) before the 08 crash.

Once he started not being able to make those returns did thing start to unravel. His own kids were in denial right up until the end - almost nobody, even inside Bernie's firm, knew it was fraudulent.

Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by IanCal on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:00PM (#33552328)
He hadn't been doing any trades for 15+ years when it all fell apart.
Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by JackFr on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:04PM (#33552400)
> almost nobody, even inside Bernie's firm, knew it was fraudulent.

It’s amazing what you can fail to know when not knowing it keeps you out of jail.

Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by svnt on Thursday November 10, 2022 @06:16PM (#33555017)
It helps if you sleep in fits on a beanbag and play League of Legends with every spare brain cell.
Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by jazzyjackson on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:28PM (#33551750)
> fund the interest promised.

IMO this is key, the interest being paid out to account holders was not profits from any underlying business, it was just paid out from new "customer" deposits.

If a corporation is in debt and paying back interest, it's sustainable as long as the business actually has a plan to grow. If your business is acquiring new users to pay out obscene interest rates to your early adopters, that's a ponzi

(mr ponzi himself didn't mean to scam anyone either way by the way, until he realized his postage-arbitrage plans were going south and he scrambled not to break his promises)

Re:FTX Tapped into Customer Accounts to Fund Risky Bets, Set... by squeaky-clean on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:46PM (#33552049)
The original scheme by Ponzi himself was based around profiting from arbitrage from postage stamps. He promised 50% returns within 90 days and couldn't keep up with his claims in a legitimate manner.