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Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by admissionsguy on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:15AM (#33467039)
Then stop being employees. Jesus Christ, you people take those massive salaried yet act like little children throwing tantrums because you fear your boss may not coddle you as much.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by orange_joe on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:17AM (#33467078)
Why is it the entrepreneur’s moral right to seek the most for themselves, but when employees do so you act like they’re children.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by luckylion on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:18AM (#33467093)
Everybody does it. But many consider one side to be immoral while doing it.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by orange_joe on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:27AM (#33467251)
Sure, but there is an actual moral distinction between seeking the most by endangering the livelihoods of ~7K-10k(the number of employees, dependents + indirectly supported workers) and seeking the most by ensuring the worlds wealthiest human can only remain in the top 10 wealthiest humans. If the workers really push him, he might only have a hundred billion instead of hundreds. Tech workers are well paid, but their bosses have the wealth of kings.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by _vertigo on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:32AM (#33467334)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think a fair number of people think CEOs and entrepreneurs are immoral for acting in a self-serving, self-enriching manner, and a fair number of people think employees are immoral doing so.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by luckylion on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:46AM (#33467603)
I see the moral point pretty much exclusively brought up against CEOs, managers etc, and virtually never against employees. Your (then ex-) boss might be angry that you've leaving because you've gotten a better offer, but barely anyone else will judge you (very rare cases exist, I'm sure, but they're rare).

Everyone is optimizing their personal outcome, be it the CEO firing people, people quitting their jobs to work elsewhere, people quitting their jobs to live off of benefits, people having children early, or having children late, it's what we all do: look out for what's best for us.

I find that totally okay, but I prefer to be honest about it, and don't pretend that it's not perfectly normal, or that people aren't doing it.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by kemayo on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:12AM (#33468054)
I think the general take is that the higher you are up the money/power hierarchy the more strictly you should be judged for your choices, because acting in a self-enriching way becomes less and less necessary. An almost incomprehensibly rich person like Musk should be given less leeway for acting in a grasping manner.

In a sense it's the inverse of the "it's moral to steal bread to feed your family" argument.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by luckylion on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:33AM (#33468423)
I agree. You have more options and fewer constraints the higher up you go, but I think that also applies to (most) Twitter/BigTech employees. A good chunk of those fired will be millionaires themselves, they're far from worrying about how to feed their families.

Nobody has to be there to survive, everyone is there willingly because they saw it as the most advantageous place to work, and they'd switch to a different company tomorrow if they got the right offer. Loyalty is a term from a different era.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by kemayo on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:51AM (#33468690)
Oh, yeah, there's definitely a scale to it. A twitter customer service employee is paid much less than a software engineer... though even the latter isn't going to have been at "will never need more money in their life" levels, particularly given the American social safety net or lack thereof.

That said, I do find that people are fairly loyal to a company that treats them well.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by kingboss on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:30AM (#33468359)
Who do you think has more leverage to optimize for their personal outcome? The CEO or the average employee?

Why do you find it OK for the ones to have power to leverage it in order to get even more? Where do you think this will end up if allowed to continue longterm?

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by luckylion on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:38AM (#33468480)
> Who do you think has more leverage to optimize for their personal outcome?

At Twitter? That's hard to say, lots of places are hiring, and getting good people is hard for all of them. Many of those that were fired will probably come out ahead financially. Twitter will probably continue to exist.

> Why do you find it OK for the ones to have power to leverage it in order to get even more?

What do you think salary negotiations are? You go in, say you want even(!) more money, and if your value is high enough, you have the power to make them do it. Again, both Twitter and the employees are playing the same game, they're just on different sides of board, but neither of them is a charity.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by SamoyedFurFluff on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:31AM (#33467323)
Elon Musk isn’t going to be kicked out of the country he’s settled down in if he loses his Twitter job. Elon Musk isn’t going to lose his healthcare, his livelihood, his means of housing and feeding himself, just as the winter holidays are about to begin in the United States.

Yes I think it’s immoral to put a person with a visa in a situation where they risk deportation unless they get hired just when hiring is slow, not just because of the job market but because other hiring managers are literally spending time with their family.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by orange_joe on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:52AM (#33467701)
I don’t actually disagree with you, I was just responding specifically to that one person.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by FormerBandmate on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:22AM (#33467159)
You’re right, everyone should just completely uproot their lives for the hell of it and start completely untested startups with no safety net whenever their boss cracks down, instead of justify complaining about his insanity
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by mc32 on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:34AM (#33467398)
It's funny how the most privileged act the most spoiled. Imagine steel plant workers or car manufacturing jobs. Demand goes down? So does your job --union or not.

WallStreet is used to the ups and downs (they are somewhat comparable compensation-wise), and it's a way of life. You win big and you lose from time time. In tech you have some people who think it's their birthright to have good jobs with good pay and benefits and never have to go through a downturn.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by wellpast on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:32AM (#33467336)
This is the story of our industry. We are so lucky and don't even know it. I've been privileged to pull substantial salary and equity outcomes at various tech groups with "top tier" engineers who get away with murder because there are literally no stakes in the job performance. If you are approximately 'smart' and get a minimal amount of work done you can get away with murder. I've gotten junior engineers jobs in this industry, and when I check back in on some of them they are like yeah I work 1 hour a day and make well into six figures. And managers and bosses are terrified of asking for any outcomes lest they lose and have to try to rehire.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by protoc on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:23AM (#33467179)
The crazy part is taking the huge salary then demanding your employer take on some social justice cause that they have been neutral on or actually already accommodating on.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by socialismisok on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:39AM (#33467479)
It's not crazy at all. If you are a worker, you are the one actually making the company productive. If the majority of workers want their company to do a thing, that company should listen.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by milosmns on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:47AM (#33467622)
I see the username, but I still want to ask... how would your ideal company deal with a situation where all employees want to run the business in the ground?
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by socialismisok on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:53AM (#33467730)
I'm a strong believer in workers cooperatives and democratic organization. Usually, people don't want to run their livelihood into the ground, but sometimes they make errors. (Just like executives, if Amazon games and stadia are any indication.)
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by megaman821 on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:35AM (#33468447)
People are absolutely free to do those things right now. There are tens of millions of people with those sentiments. Why don't we see more attempted co-ops?
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by socialismisok on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:01PM (#33468886)
So, we have some giant coops out there. Some making billions in revenue.

But in the US it's really not well supported. If you want to found an LLC you click a few buttons on a form online and talk to any lawyer.

If you want to found a co-op, you generally have to file the paperwork in person or via the mail. No one in the municipal government will help, because they don't know anything except LLCs. You'll need to find a lawyer who can draft not only the articles of incorporation, but also can advise on the issuing of shares, democratic operation, and how new members can join.

Because profits are controlled by the workers, capitalistic investors won't know what to do with you, so you'll need to put in extra effort to find investors who are willing to be paid but not be made owners (or not more than any workers).

It's a high, high initial cost. But once it's going it can be incredibly self sustaining. Every dollar of profit ends up back in the pockets of the people working there, equally. Or they can collectively choose to use that profit to expand.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by megaman821 on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:12PM (#33469086)
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Sometimes the lack of cooperatives is framed as some sort of Capitalist conspiracy against them. It is much more tractable to point out friction in the system that make starting co-ops hard and then find solutions to solve those over time.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by socialismisok on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:04PM (#33472052)
Yeah, I don't think it's particularly intentional, but it is systemic. And self perpetuating - there are few co-ops, so investing in making more is a low priority.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by michalf6 on Friday November 04, 2022 @02:00PM (#33471148)
I like the idea in principle, but I can't imagine a situation where a worker cooperative would vote in favor of a risky, but necessary pivot / layoff / long-term investment. Sounds like a recipe for killing intra-company innovation.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by socialismisok on Saturday November 05, 2022 @02:00AM (#33478415)
Right, the co-op solution is not to fire members, but split the burden of lean times across everyone. I don't think I've ever seen a CEO say, "I'll forgo my income this year to ensure we can keep the people here employed".
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by DonHopkins on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:48AM (#33467634)
Let's hope that's what happens to Twitter!
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by DonHopkins on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:43AM (#33467548)
Because they're nothing in the world worse than social justice, except for health care, not tolerating racism, and opposing fascism.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by dudeinjapan on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:33AM (#33468419)
Social justice (communism) killed upwards of 100 million last century, by famines, gulags, mass exterminations, etc. and ruined billions of more lives. Fascism killed about 50 million (WWII + Holocaust), give or take. Both are abhorrent, but social justice wins the "Worst Thing Ever" award.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by DonHopkins on Friday November 04, 2022 @02:06PM (#33471251)
Absolutely ridiculous. Social justice is not communism. Calm down: Treating women and gays and minorities and poor people equally as human beings is not going to destroy civilization. You've been brainwashed and you're parroting fascist propoganda. Take a break from Fox News or cocaine or whatever you're on, because it's making you insane.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by dudeinjapan on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:18PM (#33477502)
Social justice goes far beyond treating women, gays, minorities and poor people as equals. Equal treatment is enshrined in the US constitution, for example.

Social justice means not "equality" but "equity": looking at perceived disparities between social groups and then equalizing them by taking property from perceived "oppressor" groups and transferring to "victim" groups. This is exactly what Stalin, Mao, etc. did.

Why does no one argue that Hitlerism/Mussolini-ism/Francoism wasn't real fascism? "Real" fascism would of course usher in an era of peaceful law and order, harmonious cooperation between govt and business... /s

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by DonHopkins on Saturday November 05, 2022 @04:14AM (#33479118)
You're insane. Cut out the Fox and coke.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by dudeinjapan on Saturday November 05, 2022 @09:19AM (#33481185)
Don't watch Fox and don't touch coke, neither cola nor powder (debatable which one is worse for you.) I took classes on social justice at Brown. When I actually understood what the profs in the space were saying, looking at what it takes to implement it in the real world, the results have been pretty horrifying every time we humans have tried it. The thing I couldn't get over is the idea of "class guilt" sometimes cast as "class privilege".
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by DonHopkins on Saturday November 05, 2022 @12:10PM (#33482809)
Then why are you so unhinged and out of touch with reality?

>Social justice (communism) killed upwards of 100 million

>social justice wins the "Worst Thing Ever" award

You're absolutely insane.

Social justice is NOT communism. Got it? Because I'm repeating myself, and you're not listening to me or refuting what I said.

Apparently you have convinced yourself that phrase means something totally different than it actually does, and you're obsessing and freaking out about it.

You don't get to make up your own whacky definitions of words, and expect people to think you're not crazy or just another worthless troll when you keep insisting you're right and they're wrong.

So social justice is "communism" and the "Worse Thing Ever", huh?

Do you really believe that's what the original poster was referring to when they wrote "demanding your employer take on some social justice cause"?

Exactly who is demanding their employer support communism or perform the "Worse Thing Ever"? You mean stop paying them and insist they keep working for free, or murder hundreds of millions of people? Is that what you're afraid Twitter will do?

If you're simply against health care, and for racism and fascism, then just come out and say it, and stop beating around the bush.

Come back when you'r less unhinged, and can use the same language and definitions that the rest of the world does.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by dudeinjapan on Saturday November 05, 2022 @02:26PM (#33484188)
I'm unhinged? Hmmm...

This is "no true scotsman". The ideas underpinning Communism, Marxism, Socialism, and Social Justice are intrinsically linked and overlapped. Castro himself supposedly said "No hay comunismo ni marxismo, pero... justicia social". At the core is the proposition that certain classes / socio-economic groups are "oppressors" while others are "oppressed", and that we in the present must right the social injustices of the past. None of this is controversial or a mischaracterization.

My professors at Brown of course advocated for socialism and social justice, and I too drank the kool-aid while I was there. I graduated 15 years ago so good luck finding links :) (As an aside, there is current a prof of econ Glenn Loury who publicly takes the anti-social justice stance, he has a YouTube channel. Other profs I knew such as one who escaped the Cultural Revolution in China are surely opposed to it as well, but they keep it on the DL.)

Back to the original post, employers who play the SJ game find their employees dividing themselves into oppressor and oppressed groups, and starting grievance wars which ultimately distract from the mission of the company. It's a silly exercise at companies like Twitter where most employees would be within the top 0.5% of wealth worldwide.

Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by protoc on Friday November 04, 2022 @04:07PM (#33473014)
You forgotten to add that "Capitalism" has also killed 100s of millions.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by dudeinjapan on Saturday November 05, 2022 @09:28AM (#33481260)
Capitalism, free markets, and democracy a.k.a. "liberalism" on balance has created the greatest era of flourishing and peace humanity has ever experienced--we all live twice as long thanks to it. This is not a defense of colonialism and American interventionism, its simply a statement that liberal systems work far better than any other that has ever been tried.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by tbrownaw on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:44AM (#33468577)
I thought higher pay tended to often to together with higher other benefits, like coworkers thinking you're important and management wanting your to think they're you're friend.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by dudeinjapan on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:26PM (#33469350)
They out here saying tech workers are the downtrodden proletariat... they are not. They are firmly within the bourgeoise--top < 5% of wage earners in USA, and top < 0.5% in the world.
Re:Twitter’s mass layoffs have begun by Technetium on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:45AM (#33467574)
This belligerently screams "entitled". Maybe you should read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html