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Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by goldenchrome on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:16PM (#33373451)
The argument that a person can be a different gender than the one that all their physical biology points to is absolutely not an open-and-shut case. I know many people believe that it is, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t valid opposing arguments. To me, that means that you shouldn’t be banned for contesting the idea of transgenderism.

I think a more reasonable argument is that people should be allowed to present themselves how they want without prejudice, but that there are still some undeniable facts about the world. Clearly there are people who want to have this discussion and silencing one side of the discussion doesn’t resolve it. It just causes the tension to fester. Get it out in the open and the truth will come out.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by socialismisok on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:20PM (#33373511)
Sure. But Twitter has said "we want to make sure that we have trans voices on our platform, so in the interest of a broader marketplace of ideas, we're going to say no to one particular idea - making fun of trans people, who typically face a much higher level of violence, rejection, discrimination, and hate than most".
Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by _-david-_ on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:26PM (#33373601)
If Babylon Bee makes a joke about trans people how is that removing trans voices from the platform? If making a joke about a group is the same as encouraging violence or whatever then you can't make any jokes about people.
Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by socialismisok on Friday October 28, 2022 @02:26PM (#33375338)
Why would I stay on a platform that lets people berate me? Independent of what my identity is?

It's just a shitty experience.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by _-david-_ on Friday October 28, 2022 @03:24PM (#33376371)
If you think trans people shouldn't be allowed to be berated online then why not ban berating of Trump or whites? Why should their experience on Twitter be a "shitty experience"?

Regardless, you didn't answer my question: "If Babylon Bee makes a joke about trans people how is that removing trans voices from the platform?"

People voluntarily leaving is not removing voices.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by socialismisok on Friday October 28, 2022 @03:54PM (#33376866)
> People voluntarily leaving is not removing voices.

This is naive. If a Klan bar doesn't literally throw out Black people, they still are preventing Black people from being there by making the environment so unpleasant they cannot remain.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by hackeraccount on Friday October 28, 2022 @06:21PM (#33378723)
Doesn't this make it a race to see how everyone can be like the peasants in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

"Help Help I'm being oppressed! Come see the violence inherent in the system!"

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by socialismisok on Friday October 28, 2022 @11:17PM (#33380657)
You understand that the joke there was that the peasants were being oppressed, and the king was totally blind to it, right?
Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by _-david-_ on Friday October 28, 2022 @06:47PM (#33378932)
You could make that argument about any group that has a large amount of critics. Congress, for example, has an approval rating under that of trans people.

I propose Twitter bans anybody who "berates" a politician. If we don't do that then Twitter is allowing the environment to be too unpleasant for one the most marginalized groups out there.

Why would my plan be bad, but yours good?

Just because there is an environment that is too unpleasant for some people to remain in, doesn't mean that environment should change to conform to the wants of that person. People who are sensitive to sound can't go to some loud bar and demand everybody stop making noise. (Well they could demand it, but nobody will care). The bar isn't forcing the person to leave by not lowering the volume.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by socialismisok on Saturday October 29, 2022 @02:58AM (#33381693)
Partly due to power imbalance. Congresspeople are not typically subject to routine violence just because they are congresspeople. They aren't typically dealing with a healthcare system that is actively hostile to them. They don't have high levels of homelessness, abuse, and suicide.

Additionally, congresspeople are public figures - being satirized is part of the social contract when you become a public figure.

And congresspeople have power. Lots of power. Saying that an average congressperson and an average trans person are equal is just not true.

If you pulled out another minority group with little power, your rule might be more agreeable.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by xigoi on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:12AM (#33384176)
> Congresspeople are not typically subject to routine violence just because they are congresspeople.

…why do you think politicians have bodyguards?

> They aren't typically dealing with a healthcare system that is actively hostile to them.

Not doing unnecessary cosmetic surgery is not “actively hostile”.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by Shared404 on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:30AM (#33384312)
A) It's not just surgery, there's the difficulty in getting HRT.

B) For some trans people, the surgery is necessary from a quality of life perspective and a reduction of dysphoria.

C) It varies by country. In the US, the medical system is actively hostile to everyone (but especially trans people). In the UK, the requirements to just get HRT as a legal adult are insane.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by _-david-_ on Saturday October 29, 2022 @02:10PM (#33386525)
>Partly due to power imbalance. Congresspeople are not typically subject to routine violence just because they are congresspeople.

Congressmen are attacked all the time. They have assassination attempts all the time. The average trans person doesn't need protection, but the average congressman does.

>They aren't typically dealing with a healthcare system that is actively hostile to them. They don't have high levels of homelessness, abuse, and suicide.

Healthcare is absolutely not hostile to them. Doctors are being threatened with firing (or may have been fired?) if they don't use the correct pronouns.

I do agree that trans people have higher levels of homelessness, abuse and suicide, but I don't think it is relevant.

>Additionally, congresspeople are public figures - being satirized is part of the social contract when you become a public figure.

Having a public social media account makes you a public person in a sense. If you don't want public attention don't make a public account.

>And congresspeople have power. Lots of power. Saying that an average congressperson and an average trans person are equal is just not true.

Seeing how a trans person was able to get a company that has something like 10% of the internet going through them (Cloudflare) to remove a site I would say trans people have a massive amount of power.

>If you pulled out another minority group with little power, your rule might be more agreeable.

I think we should have consistent rules regardless of how much power a person has. Should politicians not have the right to a trial because they are powerful? Of course not. Rules should be uniform.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by Volundr on Friday October 28, 2022 @01:07PM (#33374222)
> To me, that means that you shouldn’t be banned for contesting the idea of transgenderism.

While I'm mixed on the ban, this is a mischaracterization of what they were banned for. They were banned for misgendering a specific person not questioning transgenderism. There is a significant distinction between questioning an idea and targeting a specific person.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by hackeraccount on Friday October 28, 2022 @06:18PM (#33378697)
Toleration is a funny thing isn't it? If you have a problem with transgenderism how much do you need to support it to be tolerant? If you have a problem with people who have a problem with transgenderism how much do you have to support them to be tolerant?

There are great yard sticks to this question in theory "I tolerate everything except intolerance. Your right to swing your arms stops when they come into contact with someone's nose." In practice though it's always easy - on every side - to pick out the things we don't like and decide that they're violent or intolerant.

Everyone is tolerant of the things they like - and they ask everyone to join them in that if they like those things or not.

Re:The Babylon Bee's Twitter account is no longer suspended by Volundr on Friday October 28, 2022 @06:34PM (#33378832)
I see what your saying here, and it might be a relevant discussion in a different context, but here it's really not. If they wrote a deep thoughtful article about Rachel Levine, but simply misgendered her because they don't believe in trans people for religious or whatever reasons it'd be worth asking " If you have a problem with transgenderism how much do you need to support it to be tolerant?". But they didn't. The entire point of their post was to misgender her. Not misgendering her didn't require showing any kind of support for transgenderism, it simply required... doing nothing. Instead they deliberately singled out an individual person to mock for being transgender.

If this was some random trans Rachel from Boring, Oregon, I'd call this a clear case of bullying and say the ban was 100% justified and shouldn't remain, but I think there is a much, much higher bar when the target is a government official or celebrity. But that doesn't change the fact that the entire point was singling out an individual for mockery.