News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by arsome on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:36AM (#33287859)
I mean I think both directions here make sense: SpaceX doesn't want to invest engineering effort on this when they're not even profitable and there's no profitability to be seen from navigation, while researchers can do a little reverse engineering and make something workable without the need for that engineering investment.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by ensignavenger on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:41AM (#33287906)
If the DoD really wanted it bad enough, it could be very profitable. I take the situation to mean that while there may have been some interest from the DoD, it wasn't enough to make it worth SpaceX's time.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by moralestapia on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:39AM (#33288452)
I don't think the DoD and GPS are enough revenue to offset the massive CapEx of building Starlink. Their ROI lies in providing internet to the whole world, so its's reasonable they're not allocating time/money on this.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by dmix on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:16AM (#33288880)
And being laser-focused on a particular market/model is a critical part of any early business succeeding.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by axg11 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:44AM (#33287926)
There's no profitability from navigation? Starlink could charge a massive premium for high resolution GPS.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by stevehawk on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:58AM (#33288048)
high resolution gps already exists. lookup WAAS
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by NKosmatos on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:32AM (#33288366)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System

"Currently, WAAS satellite coverage is only available in North America"

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by oritsnile on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:41AM (#33288479)
There is also the European version of this EGNOS, besides there also private Providers like TerraStar
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by jrockway on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:24AM (#33289000)
WAAS is nice but dual-band receivers provide similar accuracy levels without needing to see that satellite. Ublox quotes on their ZED-F9P datasheet 1.5m accuracy for GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+BeiDou, increasing to 1m accuracy if using space-based augmentation (WAAS, EGNOSS, MSAS, GAGAN). Even without a SBAS, if you can do RTK, you can get 0.01m accuracy. (The corrections from a nearby reference station are even better than what you can get from a satellite.)

RTK is probably more available than people think. My state offers a public network of continuously-operating reference stations; you can sign up for a free account and then do whatever RTK madness you desire. https://cors.dot.ny.gov/ if you happen to be in New York.

(I realize now that I really wanted to reply to the person complaining about not being in North America, but oh well, maybe they'll find this.)

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by mindslight on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:55AM (#33289393)
But the state-run reference stations are generally too far away from you to get that sweet sweet 1cm accuracy...

It's amazing what you can do with consumer-priced gear these days. I set up a Sparkfun ZED-F9P breakout board as a fixed beacon on my roof, and then their "RTK Facet" as the rover to do precise measurements to create a map. I could have done the basic thing I needed to by hiring a surveyor or eyeballing things with a tape measure, but this is much more general.

The GNSS software world seems to be a mess though, ripe for a paradigm shift. For example, QGIS seems to be based on flat projections with transformations rather than 3d-native - from what I can tell, QGIS seems to consider the "degree" to be a unit of length measurement! This leads to ridiculous things like being able to accidentally measure a nonsensical "cartesian" distance between two points that differs from the actual distance by a factor dependent on latitude.

I've still got to tidy up my own pipeline that lets me do things like turn N (point, distance) samples into a single point. I would have thought that type of operation would be common, but thinking about how surveyors work I guess they're usually locating points optically, rather than trying to position a GPS receiver at the point to be measured.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by jrockway on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:40PM (#33290032)
Yeah the software is ... interesting. I'm actually less than a mile away from a reference station, but don't get 1cm accuracy because I don't have a much of a sky view from my apartment's window. (But I'm moving soon and have a great sky view. And am closer to the reference station!)

Another thing you might find interesting is that you can generate a report on how good your reference station is. It's actually in Sparkfun's documentation, so you're probably aware, but if not: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/how-to-build-a-diy-gnss... Specifically the part where you collect data with u-center and upload the results to https://webapp.csrs-scrs.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/geod/tools-outils... for analysis was very interesting.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by AlotOfReading on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:48PM (#33291654)
GIS software is indeed messy, but not because the people writing it don't know what they're doing. You seem to be approaching things from a Cartesian perspective, but GIS almost always works in spherical coordinates because the earth is (approximately) a sphere. It makes a lot of common operations easier too.

Imagine you go on a road trip (along the surface of the earth). How far have you driven? In spherical coordinates, that's just changing two angles. In Cartesian coordinates, it's an ugly mess. Doesn't hurt that it's a lot easier to measure angles in surveying than distance.

However, certain GIS systems like QGIS and arcGIS are designed for making maps and have to display things in a 2D space. Thus, they have a projection mapping the spherical coordinates to Cartesian canvas coordinates and back again. This leads to unintuitive behavior, but it's mathematically hard to do better.

Now, the user interfaces and the terminology and the subtly disastrous inconsistencies between different data sources? Hot flaming garbage, all of it. These aren't problems with the underlying data models though.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by mindslight on Saturday October 22, 2022 @11:18AM (#33298985)
> You seem to be approaching things from a Cartesian perspective, but GIS almost always works in spherical coordinates because the earth is (approximately) a sphere

Actually no, I'm complaining about the exact opposite. I want to be working in spherical native coordinates, but QGIS seems to treat "degrees" as just another fixed unit of length measurement rather than an angular measurement!

For example I had the measurement projection set to "cartesian", which I would have expected to either give me the linear distance from (X,Y,Z) to (X,Y,Z), or the linear distance between the projection of those two points on an approximation of the earth's surface (either sphere or ellipsoid). Instead, it was treating (Lat, Lon) as if they were (X,Y) coordinates on a flat map and doing Pythagorean theorem on the angular measurements, resulting in the longitudinal distance being off by a factor of cos(latitude) !

I can see no paradigm in which such a result would ever be desired, apart from QGIS fundamentally working in terms of linearized projections, with WGS84 coordinates being added on as an afterthought.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by dahfizz on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:46AM (#33287946)
The US military would come down on them pretty hard.

We already have premium high resolution GPS. Its for military use only.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by pcl on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:52AM (#33287995)
I don’t think that’s true any more. IIRC, the high resolution codes were disclosed to the public in the late 90s / early 00s, and there have been no efforts to rotate them since.

Extra precision can be achieved with fixed-point augmentation signals, which I believe is common at airports and construction sites. I would assume the at militaries similarly augment signals in theaters of war. But that’s different than some separate high-resolution mode.

At this point, so many civilian services depend on the high-resolution data that I’d be pretty surprised to see GPS going back to a two-tier system.

A citation for the above:

“In May 2000, at the direction of President Bill Clinton, the U.S. government ended its use of Selective Availability in order to make GPS more responsive to civil and commercial users worldwide.

“The United States has no intent to ever use Selective Availability again.”

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by dhsysusbsjsi on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:12AM (#33288178)
The way GPS was designed to work originally is two sets of codes. Course Acquisition (CA) code which repeats at 300ms intervals with a deliberate bias was designed to bootstrap the receiver into locating its position in a 1-week Precise (P) long code. This bias was selectively worse in different regions and I think still can be changed in war zones. Happy to be educated further here!

What the US government did was remove the bias from the CA code so it could be used for precise positioning. The military still uses P codes as well. I believe there is a small gain to be had but it’s due to frequencies.

Since then there have been several more advances, mostly to broadcast local augmentation signals. Wide Area (WAAS) and Ground Bases (GBAS) are common in receivers.

L5 is a new band to help solve multipath error in urban areas.

Most receivers also have remote autonomous integrity monitoring, where it can predict its own area of probability (by using groupings of 4 in 5 satellites), and if it’s too large for the intended use case, alert the user. Also with 6 satellites it can calculate combinations of 5 satellite groupings to work out (and exclude) faulty satellites. This is Fault Detection & Exclusion (FDE).

Mobile devices will also download their own separate high resolution almanac and ionospheric data over the internet which is superior to the low data rate GPS almanac. It can also use known cell locations to approximate its position. Combined, this enables rapid (hot) signal lock immediately onto the correct satellite code & Doppler shift frequency, which is why your mobile gets a fix in 3 seconds, versus your car which takes minutes.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by Qqqwxs on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:51AM (#33288594)
> What the US government did was remove the bias from the CA code so it could be used for precise positioning. The military still uses P codes as well. I believe there is a small gain to be had but it’s due to frequencies.

The precision of positioning from the P code is 10 times greater than the C/A code (about 30cm vs 3m). This is due to the wavelength/'chip length' of the code signal which is modulated onto the carrier wave (10.23 Mhz / 29.31 m wavelength for P code, 1.023 Mhz / 293.1 m wavelength for C/A code). Positioning precision is limited to about ~1% of the chip length by signal processing.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by WJW on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:55PM (#33290274)
This is correct, but I'd like to add that at some point the errors from which frequency and code you use is no longer the dominant factor in the position error. Depending on where you are, either multipath errors (eg due to reflections from buildings or mountains) or athmospheric errors (ie due to the radio signal being distorted in the ionosphere) start to dominate.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by lxgr on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:16PM (#33292568)
Selective Availability being phased out and is no longer a feature on the most recent GPS satellites:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_...

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by RegnisGnaw on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:56AM (#33288028)
There is already a 2 tier system. Clinton turned off "Selective Availability" but kept the P(Y) code for military only use. The P(Y) code now has been supplemented by an M code for military on the newer generation of GPS.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by mschuster91 on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:01PM (#33289498)
> We already have premium high resolution GPS. Its for military use only.

So what, throw down an RTK pod and now you have like centimeter level accuracy. That's stuff anyone can buy for COTS drones, I'm eyeing on it for my DJI drones.

The only thing needing realtime in-flight accuracy of that level without an RTK pod is weaponry and maybe cars outside of road (because on road, they can augment GPS with camera data and road mappings).

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by snovv_crash on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:36PM (#33289972)
Even without RTK, the new dual-band receivers have 30cm accuracy. That's enough for any nefarious activity I can think of.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by MichaelCollins on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:04PM (#33290397)
> The US military would come down on them pretty hard.

Or maybe they'd just buy an exclusive contract.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by mlindner on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:54PM (#33294584)
> The US military would come down on them pretty hard.

Showing a clear lack of understanding how the US government works. The US military can't actually do this.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by arsome on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:45AM (#33287936)
But GPS is already so widely deployed and you can't really compete with free.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by ceejayoz on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:59AM (#33288058)
If someone starts taking out the 24 GPS satellites - a new anti-satellite weapon, or an interceptor satellite like the X-37 is speculated to be - being able to do it off Starlink's thousands as a backup would be extremely appealing to the US government.

(After all, this is the same organization that's happy to pay out the nose to keep ULA alive to have redundant launch options.)

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by manquer on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:49PM (#33290930)
GPS satellites don’t sit in LEO . All ASAT weapons demonstrated so far by any country has been only for LEO based satellites.
Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by ceejayoz on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:43PM (#33291580)
That would be why I said "new", yes.

Given that we can get satellites to GEO, we can presumably get one that goes boom up there, should we be so inclined.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by manquer on Thursday October 27, 2022 @06:28PM (#33364850)
It is not that simple, the high orbits mean it is very very difficult for solid propellant based ICBM variants to reach with a meaningful payload, also given the orbits it is much easier to perform early detection and make evasive maneuvers.

Also remember even if you did launch on liquid rockets, It is not easy to launch them in quick succession or with stealth. Liquid rockets needs a lot of time to load fuel, needs a ton of auxiliary equipment( cryogenic fuel storage at-least) and have limited shelf life once loaded which means they are limited to few known sites which you can quickly take offline after the first attack/launch.

Solid rockets/ICBMs can be launched from variety of platforms some of them very mobile and also given their lower footprint - Silos and other sites can be hidden and missiles moved around to retain the strike capability.

ASATs are primarily designed to target low flying spy sats[1], taking few key ones out can at the right time can potentially deliver few hours of advantage in a battle before alternative sats can be rerouted. Communication and navigation sats on the other hand are designed to operate even during normal times when few go offline without lose of operational capabilities .

[1] Also this is much easier to justify domestically and globally than say communication ones even if they were dual use.

Re:Starlink signals can be reverse-engineered to work like GPS by KaiserPro on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:33PM (#33292733)
> Starlink could charge a massive premium for high resolution GPS.

but then they'd have to make it reliable. We are also not sure how much more (if at all) accurate it is.

sure the bandwidth of the downlink is much higher, and louder than GPS, but the accuracy of the clocks on the satellites is much less. More importantly they are not characterised, so we arn't sure how much they drift due to temperature (both from sun and other effects.)

depending on the navigation type, visual positioning might be better/faster/more accurate. For "military" purposes, silent autonomous navigation without radio sensors is pretty appealing. Using satellite imagery, its perfectly possible to make an accurate, robust visual navigation system

for urban areas, "VPS"s are far quicker and more accurate, but require network access to work practically.