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Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by themitigating on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @02:44PM (#33266258)
That's a huge difference yet anti-intellectuals will contiune to post this paper until the end of time as proof that you can't trust science
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by diognesofsinope on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @02:58PM (#33266423)
I mean, the failure of a lot of experiments to replicate is extraordinarily well documented...

Not to mention the corollaries from the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Most_Published_Research_Fi...):

"In addition to the main result, Ioannidis lists six corollaries for factors that can influence the reliability of published research.

Research findings in a scientific field are less likely to be true,

1. the smaller the studies conducted.

2. the smaller the effect sizes.

3. the greater the number and the lesser the selection of tested relationships.

4. the greater the flexibility in designs, definitions, outcomes, and analytical modes.

5. the greater the financial and other interests and prejudices.

6. the hotter the scientific field (with more scientific teams involved)."

These are all reasonable criticisms from my own area of expertise: applied econometrics.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by nonameiguess on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @04:21PM (#33267480)
Being skeptical of cutting edge research is a lot different than distrusting science. There are plenty of people out there denying special relativity, evolution by natural selection, or believing all of western medicine is invalid, based on extrapolation from stuff like this.

I won't speak for all textbooks, but generally stuff you find in there should not be the same as what you find in journals, and is much more settled. Big caveat that that isn't necessarily true for younger sciences without long-established theory, say exercise physiology or social psychology, but something like a chemistry textbook is pretty damn trustworthy.

And those are what people who aren't actually scientists should mostly be educating themselves with, not newspaper science reporting sections.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by epolanski on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @09:38PM (#33269897)
Doubting a scientific paper results is different from distrusting science.

Academia is a complex place and it's full of fake results to get publications. (I'm coauthor of several scientific papers and I know for a fact countless highly rated papers in my former field are not reproducible because they come from adjusted numbers).

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by yucky on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @03:33PM (#33266878)
The Replication Crisis is real, denying that is anti-intellectual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by Retric on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @04:10PM (#33267364)
Calling something a crisis is arbitrary. So it both is and isn’t a crisis based on completely arbitrary metrics.
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by yucky on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @04:48PM (#33267748)
I encourage you to dig in to the sources posted. The majority of published research can't be and/or hasn't been replicated. That's a crisis by any definition, especially with the amount of idiots running around bleating about "the science is settled" or "trust the science" or whatever catch phrase.
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by Retric on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:11PM (#33268509)
The degree to which the science is settled varies wildly by topic and that’s ok. Nutrition is perceived to be filled with a lot of junk, but without dietary vitamin C you will die. That’s settled even inside a field filled with debate.

Individual papers where never intended to be the final arbiters of truth, that’s not their role. If nobody thinks things are worth looking into again then stuff stays in a very nebulous state which is no worse than where things where before a paper was published.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by yucky on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @08:25PM (#33269476)
>If nobody thinks things are worth looking into again then stuff stays in a very nebulous state which is no worse than where things where before a paper was published.

I don't think so, because of the aforementioned idiots who take a study that can't even be replicated but then cite the paper as evidence for something. If it can't be replicated, logic would say there is a very good chance it's inaccurate. Yet it's treated as being "settled science" which is worse.

Also, many times it isn't that nobody thinks it's worth looking into again, it's that coming to "the wrong conclusion" on some things will end their careers so they'd rather play it safe and just keep sucking up grant money to pump out more of the same garbage.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by Retric on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @11:50PM (#33270649)
If it’s not worth looking into again then the answer isn’t important. As to what idiots do, they quite literally aren’t worth paying attention to.
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by JamesianP on Thursday October 20, 2022 @12:57AM (#33270974)
Those bad papers are an impediment. It's much harder to get your paper/proposal past reviewers when it's for solving a problem someone else claims to have solved already. Also, even if you do get past that higher barrier at an added expense and time (reviewers will want a lot more evidence to support a claim refuting a prior claim versus a groundbreaking new claim), the person who usually gets cited more, funded more, and a bigger career advantage is still the person who's non-replicable publication was first.
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by serial_dev on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @05:28PM (#33268146)
Mentioning that not everything that's published in a peer reviewed publication is automatically 100% correct is not anti-intellectual.

Mistakes can be made, data can be limited or misinterpreted, scientists can be corrupted. Theories, "common sense" can change: what we thought we'd know for sure have been proven wrong. If you are a scientist, you know that.

Only because I don't automatically take every "scientific" finding at face value, it doesn't mean I don't trust science.

I trust science, I just don't trust every single research, experiment, scientist, or journal. Actually that's in itself, in a way, science.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by afpx on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @05:41PM (#33268244)
“Science” currently incentivizes the wrong things. How do you change the incentives (back)?
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by chithanh on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:21PM (#33268593)
I think it is a misconception that switching to the "right" incentives will solve problems. The very existence of incentives is not conducive for knowledge-based work.

https://hbr.org/1993/09/why-incentive-plans-cannot-work

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by hbn on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @05:43PM (#33268254)
Yup. Blindly "trusting the science" is inherently anti-science

There is plenty of things that we took as scientific fact in the past that turned out to be false. Science is supposed to question existing notions and test/prove new theories. If you just assume that we're in a post-science era where we've got it all figured out, and our current theories are all correct, that's not science, it's dogmatic faith.

Ignaz Semmelweis was destroyed by the medical community for his insane idea that doctors should wash their hands before performing medical procedures. He was attacked about to the point where he ended up having a nervous breakdown and was committed to an asylum where he was beaten to death by the guards. Serves him right for questioning the science!

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by dekhn on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:09PM (#33268497)
We've optimized since Ignaz; now, you only have to infect and then cure yourself to win a Nobel after being doubted (https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/11/health/nobel-came-after-y... the scientist actually infected themself with helicobacter pylori, got sick in the predictable way, and cured it with antibiotics)

The process by which DNA was convincingly demonstrated to be the molecule of hereditary was fairly complex; an early experiment that was complex and hard to understand did so, but people didn't completely believe it so a later experiment that was easier to understand was done.

For the longest time, the establishment believed the functionality of the ribosome (a critical subsystem that translates mRNA into protein) was carried out by its protein subunits. Although convincing data was published in the 1960s, the general belief did not change until the crystal structure of the ribosome was published showing that RNA formed the catalytic component.

And my personal favorite, it was considered unpossible that prions could be caused by proteins that misfolded and caused other proteins to misfold, it required absolutely heroic efforts in the face of extraordinary pressure to establish the molecular etiology of prions in the minds of the establishment.

It's hard to change your mind. Some people never will.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by d0mine on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:16PM (#33268559)
"Science advances one funeral at a time." https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/09/25/progress/
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by foobarbecue on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:42PM (#33268786)
Medicine was not at all scientific until recently. There's a great podcast series about the rise of evidence-based medicine (over authority-based medicine) that I loved, but I can't seem to find it now... Anybody know what I'm thinking of?
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by timr on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:17PM (#33268560)
It's also wrong. There have now been large-scale initiatives to reproduce papers, and they're getting higher failure rates than 14%.

The statistics underlying all of this make a number of implicit assumptions that may or may not be true IRL (for example: that journals publish papers independent of the salaciousness of claims made within them). If Science picks out only the top-5% most-sensational claims for publication, then you can't assume that a 95% CI is a safe threshold. You've probably got to increase it to a much higher value to have any prayer of getting past the inherent bias in such a process.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by genewitch on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @09:32PM (#33269876)
Wait until you start looking in to, say, psychology papers, vis a vis reproducibility. I think that a lot of these studies should be reviewed during the actual research and study part by at least a sociologist or cultural anthropologist, and a mathematician with expertise in probability.

When nearly every policy can be backed by "some papers published in <some journal>", stuff like this becomes important. For a recent example, the US White house is engaging in a 5 year study to determine if releasing sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere would accomplish enough "cooling" to offset the "climate crisis". the "climate crisis" is something that exists in computer models, few of the models agree, and if they do, it behooves us to look at when they started agreeing and find out why that change happened.

a more personal example: I can't reproduce getting CaCO out of seawater, yet.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by tgv on Thursday October 20, 2022 @05:09AM (#33272326)
I think you've never done psych research. First of all, statisticians and methodologists are frequently included, also in the design phase, if it's not a simple adaptation of an existing study. Nonetheless, many papers contain design errors.

Second, sociology and anthropology are among the least empirical of academic disciplines. What reason would you have to involve them?

Third, many studies are of the type "my theory predicts X and my experiment shows p < 0.05". That's almost wrong by definition. Bayesian theory explains why.

Fourth, many studies have conclusions/claims that cannot be inferred from the actual finding.

> When nearly every policy can be backed by "some papers published in <some journal>", stuff like this becomes important.

It is important, but as long as academia is a "turn out papers for tenure" industry, it won't be fixed. Don't take the conclusions of a paper for true. They're meant for other academics.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by genewitch on Thursday October 20, 2022 @08:53AM (#33273926)
it seems that psychology papers extrapolate too much, and even "correcting for confounding factors" isn't enough, if the researchers don't know enough confounding factors, for one.

And i think that R and python being popular in the academic fields belies the fact that no one wants to talk to statisticians about their data. It's a lot easier to massage inputs to a machine than a human.

I was under the impression we were talking about reproducibility in this thread; therefore my point about policy being influenced by something you suggest is "meant for other academics"

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by treeman79 on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:33PM (#33268708)
It’s not that you can’t trust “science” it’s that people are fallible.
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by viridian on Thursday October 20, 2022 @10:06AM (#33274873)
The big unaddressed issue is that conclusions based on empirical data can only be as good as the observations. If the data is biased, manipulated, "massaged", etc, there can be no good output from that poisoned tree, and other persons cannot contradict the results without attempting to replicate the entire research process beginning to end.

With math, physics, applied math, computer science, etc, bad results can be usually (but not always) deconstructed by anyone with the merest tools of the rational; formal logic, application of various categorical laws, etc.

Science as a process is useful, but its conclusions can only be as reliable as what its body of producers are incentivized to produce.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by kriops on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @10:24PM (#33270158)
There's a big difference between science and social science. Or science and medicine for that matter. They are different domains that require different models of reasoning, which come with their respective sets of limitations.

There's a reason you don't see a crisis in e.g. physics, where their hypotheses are leaps and bounds more testable.

Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by onos on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @10:42PM (#33270249)
This failure rate suggests a reason the social sciences don’t “lead anywhere”: If you try to build a theorem off of two earlier results, but these each only have probability p of being right, then the chance your new theorem is correct goes like p^2. For small p this means deductions based on combining results are very small.
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by onos on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @10:43PM (#33270256)
This failure rate suggests a reason the social sciences don’t “lead anywhere”: If you try to build a theorem off of two earlier results, but these each only have probability p of being right, then the chance your new theorem is correct goes like p^2. For small p this means the chance that a deduction is correct is very small.
Re:Why Most Published Research Findings Are False (2005) by pfortuny on Thursday October 20, 2022 @05:45AM (#33272512)
Have you read Ioaniddis’ reply? It is worth the effort.