The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable

Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by cwillu on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @10:48AM (#33263032)

And also https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-ph...

“A virtual particle is not a particle at all. It refers precisely to a disturbance in a field that is not a particle.”

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by nimish on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @12:05PM (#33264182)

Also virtual particles don't make sense in a non-perturbative regime like room-temp protons, since they are an aid to understanding terms in the perturbation series expansion.

Not sure how they even apply in the case where Feynman diagrams aren't applicable. Hell, the calculations likely use lattice QCD which eschews them entirely!

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by zakk on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @12:14PM (#33264318)

Protons are non-perturbative, indeed, but this does not mean that there are no virtual particles exchanged inside a proton. It seems like your comment implies that, sorry if I misunderstood.

On the contrary, this means that there are too many virtual particles (gluons) being exchanged inside a proton, so many that perturbation theory is not applicable.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @12:23PM (#33264455)

Are gluons virtual? (Or are they virtual inside a proton?)

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by frutiger on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @12:46PM (#33264751)

Gluons are real.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by blueprint on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @04:16PM (#33267418)

Virtual particles are also "real", and if you don't believe me, at least you have to admit that virtual photons alone lead to real energy (e.g. Casimir effect) - and it has also been stated that gluons within protons can be interpreted as "virtual"... so I'm pretty sure your comment is wrong. I'd downvote you if I could since that seems to be what the cool kids here are doing but I used up all my karma telling the truth.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by hilbert42 on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:40AM (#33285531)

"Virtual particles are also "real"."

No doubt, and Casimir is probably sufficient evidence, but it seems to me a lot of confusion would be saved if we changed the name.

To what I don't know but something like say quantum energy disturbance but more eloquent.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by blueprint on Saturday October 22, 2022 @02:59PM (#33301080)

100%. "Possible" particle? :)

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by cwillu on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @05:05PM (#33267928)

Your question is can be posed as “is there a well-behaved resonance of the gluon field in a proton, that lasts long enough for it to be identified”. It's kinda like identifying a bubble in a pot of cold water vs a pot just starting to boil vs a rolling boil.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by hither_shores on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @01:58PM (#33265709)

Virtual particles are part of an indexing scheme for perturbation series - saying that you leave the perturbative regime when you have "too many" of them is like saying that crystalline solids melt when they have too many normal modes.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by xigency on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @08:39PM (#33269569)

Finally an analogy where I understand neither comparison :)

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by est on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:04PM (#33268441)

this is the most important TIL article I've read in years. Thanks!

Basically, it's like a playing around virtual machine on a physical PC.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by Kranar on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @08:57PM (#33269679)

There are also tons of articles that state the opposite; that virtual particles are in fact actual particles. I don't see how either interpretation is particularly relevant. Physics uses math to model reality. Every part of that model is virtual and has some correspondence with what we experience and observe and that's all that matters at the end of the day.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by cwillu on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @10:51PM (#33270284)

The physical dress is blue and black, in spite of all the articles showing how to see it as white and gold, the articles demonstrating how in theory you could have a white and gold dress look like that given the correct lighting, and the articles saying that the distinction isn't real and that all black and blue dresses are equivalent to white and gold dresses.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by est on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @10:58PM (#33270321)

> that virtual particles are in fact actual particles

I assume that means those "virtual particles" behave almost like actual particles. e.g. have a rest mass or not.

This helps lay person understand physics better.

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Re:The Proton, the ‘Most Complicated Thing’ Imaginable by hilbert42 on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:03AM (#33285672)

Depends on the definition of a particle, and 'virtual particles' aren't the same as 'real' particles. As I said above it'd be a good idea to change the name, it'd stop lots of confusion.

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