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Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by helf on Monday October 17, 2022 @09:55AM (#33233534)
“No shit”.

Wait, you mean something that literally tracks any and all actions in a literal chain of history that is immutable is easy to track?!?

You mean that pattern recognition can be applied to even “randomized” in both size, time, and destination of transactions can be done to track like how they can track burner phones?

I’m shocked! Shocked I say!

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by breck on Monday October 17, 2022 @10:30AM (#33233986)
This is really concerning. How are people going to use blockchain to do nefarious things if it's easier to track?
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by seanw444 on Monday October 17, 2022 @10:46AM (#33234203)
How are people going to do moral things against an immoral enforcer when the enforcer becomes immoral, if we assume all are too immoral to have the right to privacy?
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by username_exists on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:56PM (#33236363)
Wish I could upvote this twice
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by TomSwirly on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:51PM (#33237283)
Let me get this straight.

Because some people are corrupt, you feel no law should apply to you or anyone?

Or... really, I can't come up with any sensible interpretation of what you wrote other than that.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by seanw444 on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:47PM (#33239949)
> right to privacy is good

> oh so you think you're above the law now?

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by rabuse on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:05AM (#33234492)
That's what "Coin Mixers" would do in the past, but the good one's stopped operating.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by blantonl on Monday October 17, 2022 @10:45AM (#33234199)
You uncover a single entity in a public ledger and it's like pulling a thread that opens up a gold mine.

The ledger as a permanent history available to the world, in real time, of every single transaction.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by blaser-waffle on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:43PM (#33237151)
> The ledger as a permanent history available to the world, in real time, of every single transaction.

arguably a selling point. just not for selling large quantities of online drugs.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by outworlder on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:48PM (#33237241)
Or for people buying or selling anything that's currently legal but that could then become illegal during their lifetime.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by merely-unlikely on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:24PM (#33237664)
Laws are generally not retroactive (though admittedly this principle does get violated).

> The Ex Post Facto Clause, contained in Article I, Section 9, Clause 3 of the Constitution, provides: “No . . . ex post facto Law shall be passed.” The phrase “ex post facto,” Latin for “after the fact,” refers to laws that apply retroactively. While the Ex Post Facto Clause on its face might appear to bar all retroactive legislation, courts have applied the Clause only to penal laws.

> Congress has much greater leeway to enact retroactive legislation in the civil sphere than in the criminal sphere. However, certain constitutional limits apply, and courts interpreting ambiguous statutes apply a general presumption against retroactivity.

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF11293.pdf

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by santiagobasulto on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:08AM (#33234538)
Literally my reaction as well: "no shit, Sherlock"
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by sixothree on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:13AM (#33234617)
I think the real answer is “then why are you so bad at tracking money?”.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by jlarocco on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:52AM (#33235299)
I don't understand that response.

Paper money was never designed to be tracked, and IMO that's a good thing.

You're saying you'd like to see better tracking of paper money?

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by tadfisher on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:59PM (#33236415)
Paper money is tracked all the time. US bills have serial numbers. This has resulted in the arrest of bank robbers, ransomers, and hijackers in the past.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by dogma1138 on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:27PM (#33236880)
For money to be effectively tracked it needs to be scanned and recorded at every transaction the reality is that most bills especially lower denominations tend to circulate without being deposited, in fact many of them would circulate until they are in such bad shape that they have to be destroyed without ever being deposited back at a bank.

Even when they are deposited at a bank the banks don’t tend to keep those records forever, they have lists of serial numbers that they need to watch for but if you deposit cash into your account the bank would hold the bill information for a relatively short period of time and they don’t actively share that information with LEOs or other agencies unless explicitly requested to do so.

Even with robberies it sometimes takes years or even decades before enough bills surface to actually trigger an alert and many of them never do.

Not to mention that there are billions in counterfeit dollars in circulation at any point in time and many of them are rarely caught because they never reach a point where a good enough forgery would be discovered.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by MichaelCollins on Monday October 17, 2022 @12:47PM (#33236183)
When it comes to cryptocurrencies, a lot of people involved are so ignorant that "water is wet" statements come as a genuine revelation to them. Why? Bitcoin advocates have been deliberately targeting very ignorant and naive people because they're easy money.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by anonporridge on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:30PM (#33236940)
Bitcoin advocates have generally been exceedingly clear about these kinds of things. To the point of begging people to listen. From "not your keys, not your coins" to "KYC/AML bought coins are easy to trace" to "please, for the love of god, don't give your coins to the centralized Celsius to try to eek out an extra 10% gains you greedy dumbass".

People consistently don't listen.

Crypto pumpers on the other hand tend to not care and say whatever BS they want to pump their bags.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by MichaelCollins on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:33PM (#33236981)
> Bitcoin advocates have generally been exceedingly clear about these kinds of things. To the point of begging people to listen. From "not your keys, not your coins" to "KYC/AML bought coins are easy to trace"

Such advocates are the fringe. Most bitcoin advocates are saying "If you're not buying bitcoin you're an idiot! It's easy money! My critics are no-coiners who didn't listen to me!"

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by anonporridge on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:38PM (#33237058)
Such advocates are the ones with the credentials to actually bother listening to, like core devs or the people who literally wrote the book on understanding the technical nature of the system.

They're not the fringe, they're the core that the fringe pump monkeys looking for a quick buck latch onto and promptly ignore.

The majority of people who talk about literally anything aren't worth listening to, and if you can't differentiate between the two, we have bigger problems to work through.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by MichaelCollins on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:43PM (#33237146)
> like core devs or the people who literally wrote the book on understanding the technical nature of the system.

These are fringe. The cynical and predatory advocates are the ones who are actually heard by the naive marks.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by calibas on Monday October 17, 2022 @02:43PM (#33237883)
All the "Bitcoin advocates" that I've ever talked to couldn't tell a merkle tree from an oak.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by anonporridge on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:11PM (#33238186)
That speaks more about the people you're surrounded by than it does the incredible people actually doing the very interesting work of developing the bitcoin ecosystem behind the scenes.

It is a shame that your only exposure to the space comes from pump monkeys who don't understand that a blockchain is barely more than a distributed linked list (hell, it's basically just glorified git) and the real innovation was not the data structure, but the integration of proof of work to create Byzantine fault tolerance.

I'm pretty sure the only difference between a Merkle tree and an Oak is the theoretically infinite branching. Is that right? /s

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by calibas on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:46PM (#33238601)
FYI, I regularly interact with people who actually understand blockchain and cryptocurrencies, so your assumptions are a little mistaken. None of those people are telling me to buy Bitcoin though, so I don't count them among "Bitcoin advocates".
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by renonce on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @12:28AM (#33242984)
Well I think both of you will need to swap “Bitcoin advocates” and “crypto pumpers” so you can communicate
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by randomswede on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @02:42AM (#33243767)
My (very rough) estimate is that somewhere between 1% and 5% of those who enthuse about crypto-currencies are actually interested in the underlying tech. The rest being in it for one of "it's a safe way to do nefarious economy" and/or "it's easy money".

Me? I think the tech is intellectually interesting, but doesn't really scale to the point where it can provide a "world economy". If nothing else, with Proof-of-Work, you need 51% of ALL available computing resources dedicated to maintaining the chain, which is an incredible waste (if you don't have a majority of all available computing power, the chain is vulnerable). With Proof-of-Stake, you need a majority of the economic system dedicated to just maintaining the economic system.

So, intellectually interesting, but practically useless.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by claudoppl on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:57PM (#33239424)
I don't think that's the case. Look at some of the serious projects: - https://samouraiwallet.com/ - https://keys.casa/

It's pretty much focused on heavily tech-savvy people.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by username_exists on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:00PM (#33236448)
so you're saying the blockchain is not made up of physical blocks?
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by nohankyou on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:17PM (#33236705)
It isn't? Crap, I've been investing in Lego this whole time.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by dsr_ on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:37PM (#33237053)
If your investment horizon is long enough and your secure storage space cheap enough, Lego might be a more prudent investment.

Basic strategy: buy and hold unopened copies of the 'flagship' sets of each Lego theme. If a theme is small enough, get complete sets of sets. For instance, the Muppets minifigs were sold in blind bags, but every case was guaranteed to hold three complete sets, so buy a whole case, not random bags. The Speed Champions line, after the switch to 8-stud wide models, had a dozen or so sets over two years (so far).

At your time horizon, decide whether you want to sell as parts or sets.

In 2000, the UCS X-wing (7191-1) was about $150 new. There appears to be one incomplete set on the open market for $831. The parts are worth about twice that if sold individually. I suspect an unopened set would go for about $2000, implying a return rate of about 12.5% APY.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by 0x38B on Monday October 17, 2022 @10:49PM (#33242414)
Side note re: Lego, I have fond memories of the first Lego X-Wing and Snowspeeder. I’ll never forget losing pieces in the grass outside and calling up Lego. They asked me for the page number and sent me more pieces than I needed.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by dsr_ on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @01:27PM (#33265288)
Lego customer service varies from good to exceptionally wonderful.
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by axxto on Monday October 17, 2022 @07:08PM (#33240714)
Care to expand on the burner phone part?
Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by helf on Monday October 17, 2022 @09:46PM (#33242023)
People think "burner phones" are not traceable. They watch too much CSI etc.

Pattern matching has been successfully applied to phone logs between seemingly randomized src and dst phones. I'm busy at work and terrible at communicating clearly but what I am trying to say is that even when person A is using multiple phones and person B is also using multiple phones, there is still enough of a pattern involved such as call lengths, time of calls, etc to be able to sniff out and match these seemingly random devices to specific users.

I would have to dig up papers/reports on times this has been successfully done and reported publically.

But my point is that even running shit through coin mixers etc there is a high probability of there /still/ being enough latent information floating around to suss out a track between src and dst of blockchain transactions.

Re:Former FBI Director Said Blockchain Is Easier to Trace Th... by password4321 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @12:22AM (#33242949)
An example of bad opsec:

The Hezbollah Connection https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/the-hezbollah-co...

https://archive.ph/4uWfM#selection-1937.0-1937.13

Section 5+

> they could see that a given assassin had an “operational phone in his front pants pocket” and “in the back pocket a phone that he used to call his girlfriends.”