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Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by heisenzombie on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @01:57PM (#33166593)
I married a marine biologist, and dinner parties with her friends were eye opening in the way they talk so matter-of-factly about the ecological collapse that’s already happened in our oceans.

Compared with 100 years ago, the total biomass of predatory fish (basically, the ones we eat) is down by roughly 70%. And that’s accelerating.

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by divbzero on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:27PM (#33167081)
Does anyone know if we are facing similar ecological collapse on land?
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by makerofspoons on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:37PM (#33167267)
Yes, unfortunately: More than 75 percent decline over 27 years in total flying insect biomass in protected areas: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

48% of bird species in decline: https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2022/05/global-bird-populat...

among other examples. In 2018 it was estimated by the WWF that 60% of the animal population was lost between 1970 and 2014: https://www.wwf.org.uk/updates/living-planet-report-2018

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by colechristensen on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:35PM (#33167246)
We don’t eat land predators, generally, and most of the biomass lots happened much earlier with the spread of humans, i.e. 500 to 20,000 years ago.

Most of the worlds land megafauna are gone because big slow things are really easy to kill for groups of primitive humans with pointy sticks.

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by chucksta on Thursday October 13, 2022 @09:21AM (#33190595)
There are certainly more recent records.. https://www.businessinsider.com/skulls-photo-american-bison-...

>In 1800, it was estimated there were forty million bison, by 1883, there were few wild bison in the United States - most were in Yellowstone National Park. By 1900, there were less than a thousand left in North America.

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by vkou on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:33PM (#33167213)
We've already caused it. The overwhelming majority of land mammal mass is either humans, or farm animals raised for humans to eat. Almost half of the world's land surface is now farmland.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by ThrowawayIP on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:38PM (#33167284)
And the vast vast majority of this farmland that could be used to raise human-edible crops is used to feed domesticated animals. While humans die of starvation.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by colechristensen on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:38PM (#33167288)
> Almost half of the world's land surface is now farmland

This is a BS statistic meant to shock and inappropriately counts the entire area of wilderness that might be used for grazing which is just wilderness that would have supported similar animals anyway.

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by vkou on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:50PM (#33167485)
Managed crop monoculture, which ~half of farmland is - is not 'something similar' to natural forests, plains, grasslands, scrubland, etc.

Even grazing land rarely looks anything like it does before we've shaped it for our use. And even when it does, at first glance, it gets a monoculture of animals, instead. Farmers are not keen on seeing their herds deal with competition or predation from the wild.

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by randomdata on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:08PM (#33167758)
> Managed crop monoculture, which ~half of farmland is

That doesn't seem right. According to the FAO (United Nations), only 1.3 billion hectares of land are arable while nearly 5 billion hectares are used for agriculture. That's more like ~25%. And the latter figure only accounts for 38% of the world's land area, so the earlier half figure claim doesn't seem right either.

I suppose if the margin of error on those approximations is exceptionally large...

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by PeterisP on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:00PM (#33167639)
On the other hand, we have local biodiversity regulations which require certain land to be grazed and/or cut (as for hay), since the 'meadow' biomes and the associated birds and insects have adapted to the many centuries of land being farmed and can't survive if the plains aren't grazed and are left to just grow.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by divbzero on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:45PM (#33167398)
That fits the estimates from one research article: [1]

  0.06  Gt C human biomass
  0.1   Gt C livestock biomass
  0.007 Gt C wild mammal biomass
  0.002 Gt C wild bird biomass
The article also estimated that “wild land mammal biomass decreased ≈7.6-fold” when comparing the world today to prehuman times [2].

[1]: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1711842115

[2]: https://github.com/milo-lab/biomass_distribution/blob/master...

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by blakesley on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:51PM (#33167492)
Err, what? You're not aware that we're destroying the planet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by moistly on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @08:38PM (#33171192)
It absolutely boggles my mind that people can be unaware that this world is collapsing. One would have to deliberately avoid the media. Or, I guess, just shut the information out. “Too scary to think about” might be quite literal.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by markstos on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:16PM (#33166894)
So do you still eat fish?
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by nominusllc on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:28PM (#33167106)
You know the answer to this, so why ask? Just make your accusation directly and take your smugness in lump sum rather than annuity.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by markstos on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:54PM (#33168421)
You've got a crystal ball here?

Some people change their behavior when they learn they their current behaviors are contributing to significant harm and there is a viable alternative to reduce harm.

We've got a choice about whether we contribute to the harm caused by commercial fishing or not.

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by boston_clone on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:57PM (#33168458)
Seems this is a sensitive topic for you; is there perhaps some cognitive dissonance at play? If so, it’s probably worth teasing out the details and reassessing behaviors or beliefs.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by fallingfrog on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:15PM (#33167868)
You hear this kind of argument a lot, people like to accuse one another of "virtue signaling". I like to call it the Joker argument- "You're just like me underneath, Batman." It's an argument you can trot out in any situation too, even if you don't have any real point to make, because it isn't an argument at all, but rather a character attack. It's lazy and dishonest.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by randomdata on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:35PM (#33168176)
Presumably you responded to the wrong comment by mistake, but if not what argument are you referring to? All I see is a simple question that most certainly doesn't say anything about anyone's character. It is true that any possible answer to the question won't tell us much in the grand scheme of things, but that shouldn't stop someone from having a little curiosity now and again. Curiosity is the spice of life, as they say.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by heisenzombie on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @10:45PM (#33172142)
It has certainly changed my habits substantially.

I don’t eat a lot of fish, and what I do eat is mostly aquacultured here in New Zealand: freshwater salmon and green-lipped mussels are the lowest impact options available to me.

I sometimes have wild-caught fish when I’m away with friends who spearfish. On the very rare occasion I buy wild-caught fish, I’m very picky about species and method (long lines or maybe set netted, never trawled)

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by beardedetim on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @02:53PM (#33167536)
Can I ask a stupid question in earnest? Is it bad for them to die out? Is the fear that if we lose 90% of this life that there will be complete collapse of the worlds ecosystem?

Maybe a better question would be: where can I find more information on the consequences of this?

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by acuozzo on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:05PM (#33167723)
AFAIK 50-80% of our oxygen comes from Phytoplankton in the ocean.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by darraghenright on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:57AM (#33212764)
I believe that when a fish population declines by 80–90% it never recovers, that's it. Even if you leave them alone. It happened to cod in Newfoundland.

The excellent 2009 documentary "The End of the Line" was the first place I heard discuss catastrophic fish population crashes, and it covers this dramatic topic and its very serious implications in detail. It also talks about the mind-boggling, almost unbelievable scale at which modern fishing vessels such as supertrawlers operate.

Frankly, I was horrified by what I learned about modern fishing watching this movie.

https://theendofthelinemovie.com/

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by MilesCe on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:04PM (#33167690)
I don't think the data supports the notion that there is a collapse. A lasting 70% reduction without the ongoing interference (overfishing) by humans would be a problem, but even that would not be a collapse.

A couple decades ago the concept of overfishing became more well-known, and the industry was forced to change. The reason that the industry reacted also has to do with the fact that a true collapse of the fish population would also decimate the entire industry - they have an interest in keeping it stable.

If 99% of a fish population goes away, it would take decades for the population to recover to normal levels. During those years, there would be no profit.

The true reason why the fish population is down 70% is due to the fact that every year the fishing industry takes out as many fish as possible without causing a lasting depression of fish population.

If all fishing would be stopped right now, the global fish population would recover to pre-human levels within probably 20 or 30 years.

Here's what someone from the Australian fishing industriy has to say about this:

"We have learned from the ’60s to ’90s era and today most large fisheries are well managed (some in Asia/Africa are not) and either recovering or operating at maximum economic yield. You cannot catch fish to extinction – they will always recover if you stop fishing. It’s the recovery time that is the issue – and the time to when you can recommence harvesting, sustainably."

Of course these people are heavily biased, and the industry is rotten to the core and full of corruption, but it's hard to argue against this self-evident logic.

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by tablarasa on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:37PM (#33168196)
You might find this paper interesting- it's focused on adapting fisheries management to climate change, but some of the core principles of fisheries management are touched [1]. Check out some of the figures.

There are some paradoxical concepts in fisheries management, not least is that the Maximum Sustinable Yield often supports aligned interests between fisherman (who want to profit/eat) and fish populations (who want to persist). Overfishing is a tragedy of the commons; managing those fisheries properly can produce MORE fish in the ocean even if yields go up. Not always, but this stuff is not cut and dry and the dynamics of population growth and extraction in these animals have to be understood.

[1] https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aao1378

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by bch on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:08PM (#33167768)
> I don't think the data supports the notion that there is a collapse.

It’s not a collapse of “the ocean”, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north...

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by saiya-jin on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:16PM (#33167888)
That all relies on the fact that all actors involved have some shiny long term sustainability goals and behave strictly morally. Which as all know damn too well is a pure fantasy. Chinese fleets swiping parts of oceans clean anywhere they can and are not caught couldn't care less what will be there in 50 years, or some treaties of western countries.

Also, you completely ignore 2nd and 3rd order effects - decimation of populations dependent on those missing fish that can't and won't recover as easily as fish can.

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by fallingfrog on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @03:12PM (#33167829)
How do you know this? OP states that their statement comes from marine biologists.
Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by heisenzombie on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @11:17PM (#33172367)
That's fine if your population model is just an independent logistic function for each species. But ecosystems aren't like that.

I'll take an example from New Zealand because it's where I live and what I know about. New Zealand has a huge fishery EEZ and is, I believe, widely regarded has having one of the most "well managed" fisheries in the world.

And yet, in large parts of our inland waters a combination of soil runoff and bottom trawling has turned millions of acres of seabed from incredibly productive nurseries of seagrass beds and shellfish-covered rocky reefs... into featureless swathes of sediment called "Kina barrens" (basically, dominated by a kind of spiky sea-urchin). These areas have passed a tipping point, there's basically no getting them back. Shellfish can't attach to the mucky sediment to regenerate the reefs or filter the water, and seagrass is instantly eaten by the sea-urchins, which run amok because there's no nursery for the snapper population that would normally keep them in check.

I don't know what my point is, really, other than to say that I think it's hubris to think we have a sophisticated enough understanding of ecosystems to balance thousands of species on the knife-edge of fishing them to maximum sustainable pressure. Sometimes we'll get it wrong and an ecosystem will go "pop". Then we can't get it back.

As for positive prescriptions -- The main thing I've heard is that we should be urgently pushing for marine reserves. And that they absolutely have to be large and NO-TAKE. The goal should be something wildly optimistic like 50% of EEZs. Fishing can happen in the other half. (For reference here's where we currently are: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-no-take-areas-and... )

Re:That Snapper You’re Eating Might Be 80 Years Old by wanderr on Tuesday October 11, 2022 @11:52PM (#33172620)
I'm responding to your other claim further down that got downvoted into oblivion with no responses, and therefore no explanation. You are quite wrong, but you deserve to know why.

"It's basic school knowledge that any population will recover, as long as you have a couple organisms left who can reproduce and the environment itself hasn't fundamentally changed."

I just recently took a biology class, and that is fundamentally not the case. One of the major causes of population collapse leading to extinction is lack of genetic diversity once a population is small. Once diversity is too low, even if conditions are relatively favorable, a population is much more vulnerable to disease or seemingly small changes to the environment. One of the ways biologists try to "rescue" populations these days is by introducing genetic diversity where possible.