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Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by parker_mountain on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:37PM (#33128709)
> the GPL is nearly everywhere except firmware and phones

GPLv2 is still a tenable license. GPLv2 also has huge flaws around libre intentions, and it is reasonably easy for a company to sidestep the intent of a copyleft license.

GPLv3, which was created to prevent companies from side-stepping the intent of FOSS, is a huge limiting factor to any project - companies simply cannot risk the implications of using it. And thus, projects using it rarely see commercial commits back - a huge source of contribution for any popular library.

As for firmware and phones, well, those are increasingly the majority of devices in existence. And servers are increasingly forgoing shipping userspaces, as they move to a more hardened and lightweight role.

The GPL is only in places where it is defanged (v2). Its use is steadily declining. The amount of use-cases for it is steadily declining. This has been the general trend of the industry and computers.

They are not on the winning side of libre/copyleft, and have not been for over a decade now. It is tragic.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by AceJohnny2 on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:17PM (#33128925)
I know some companies forbid the installation of AGPL software entirely.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by smegger001 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @01:10AM (#33129938)
yeah AGPL seems to go father than many people are willing to accept. if i ship a device with copyleft code on it fair enough share the code. But AGPL is my device runs AGP code i have to share it. thats to much for me. if i am not distributing binaries i shouldn't have to share code.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by josephcsible on Saturday October 08, 2022 @01:28AM (#33130010)
> But AGPL is my device runs AGP code i have to share it.

In general, no you don't. You only do if you let other users interact with the AGPL'd program over the network.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by charcircuit on Saturday October 08, 2022 @03:58AM (#33130618)
No, running AGPL programs does not require you to share the code. Modifying AGPL programs requires you to offer all users a copy of the source code. You can for example modify the code and offer it in a public github project and after you have made the modification make the github project private.

Don't worry, this is a common misconception. Just running AGPL code doesn't obligate you to do anything

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by pabs3 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @06:02AM (#33131111)
This is correct, the network clause triggers only on modification of the AGPL program.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by goodpoint on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:15AM (#33130913)
And the large majority allow it.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by Dylan16807 on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:45PM (#33129082)
There's not really any risk from GPLv3, is there? Just companies being whiny.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by froh on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:19AM (#33129760)
yeah they'd need to innovate to mitigate their risk.

example: you are a car manufacturer. you have a legal responsibility for the street safety of your car, a responsibility for the functional safety of your product.

now a car crashes, badly, killing people, and blame is put onto the internal software of some on board "electronic control unit", ecu.

how can you ensure the software was not tampered with?

lock it down, secure boot?

then you can't have any gpl3 component on there.

so to allow for personal software modifications you'd need to innovate some mechanism which reliably flags unsigned software changes to the ecu. they need to be reliable enough that even after a crash you can still check if the ecu was running vendor software or some modified version. just like you can check if the brakes or the steering was intact or tampered with.

such legal liability is at the heart of rejecting gpl3 for many devices.

ps: for infotainment it's not about human life but about profit, content tax, a different story.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by josephcsible on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:25AM (#33129780)
It's perfectly okay for you to put GPLv3 software in ROM that nobody can ever modify and then sell me the hardware. What's not okay is selling me hardware where you can modify the software after the fact, but I can't. And it's also okay for your hardware to detect if I modified the software. It just can't refuse to work if I did.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by charcircuit on Saturday October 08, 2022 @03:30AM (#33130516)
And this is where the FSF makes the weird trade off that they prefer to not have security updates as that's more "free" than being able to get security updates from the manufacturer. Either way you can't update it, but at least in the scenario the FSF opposes the users are able to be more secure.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by bheadmaster on Saturday October 08, 2022 @03:57AM (#33130612)
True. FSF doesn't support taking the freedom away from users in the name of security.

> at least in the scenario the FSF opposes the users are able to be more secure

That's quite questionable. What if someone steals the manufacturer keys? Then people with unmodifyable devices would be more secure.

But anyway that's besides the point since FSF is against taking the freedom away from the users under the veil of "security" anyway.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by froh on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:42PM (#33133791)
this has nothing to do with security updates. any vendor is free to ship security updates however vendors often decide to refuse updates to "tainted" devices.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by josephcsible on Sunday October 09, 2022 @08:28PM (#33146649)
That's not what the FSF meant the exception to be used for. That's basically the manufacturers abusing a loophole.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by froh on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:37PM (#33133736)
that scenario doesn't exist, non-flashable rom.

only. the other scenario, "vendor can update I can't" is relevant.

and that detection mechanism is called "secure boot".

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by josephcsible on Sunday October 09, 2022 @08:27PM (#33146640)
> that scenario doesn't exist, non-flashable rom.

Of course they do. One example is pressed DVDs.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by pabs3 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:59AM (#33131102)
You absolutely can put GPLv3 on there, check out this presentation:

https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017...

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by froh on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:49PM (#33133854)
...and put your device in "dev board mode", which loses all homologation and puts the vehicle into safe space.

and as per the slide deck this may be a one way operation, creating a brick in the driveway.

I know the slide deck. I've asked automotive oems to think about a dev mode which does drive, but puts the whole car into a dev mode and makes this obvious. too expensive. just kick out gpl3 from anything relevant to homologation.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by HideousKojima on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:43AM (#33129826)
It means they have to make any locked-down devices they sell not-locked-down due to the anti-tivoization part of the GPLv3
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by varajelle on Saturday October 08, 2022 @03:21AM (#33130476)
GPLv3 also has extra patent clauses
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by pabs3 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @06:01AM (#33131109)
GPLv2 also as those provisions:

https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-t...

In addition, even the GPLv3 allows what Tivo did (break proprietary software when GPL software is updated:

https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017...

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by creatonez on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:09PM (#33129219)
Contrary to popular conception, GPLv3, at large, dramatically reduces risk for commercial use compared to GPLv2 -- https://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/fosdem-video/2015/devroom-lega...

But as long as companies like Google and Apple whine about it (and sometimes outright lie about it), people will continue to believe that it poses a great risk to commercial use.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by jra_samba on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:43PM (#33129360)
Please get your facts correct.

Google does not whine about GPLv3. Google ships GPLv3 licensed code. Google doesn't allow AGPL code, but that is a different license.

Apple, however, will not ship GPLv3 code.