Sometimes you have to make hard choices where some people get burned because the alternatives are worse. That doesn’t mean you don’t care.
In this case the people asking for 2FA are the "small minority", and the rest of us have to suffer through 2FA-authentication hell because of them.
How many people don't like 2fa because they don't know about all the times it's saved them from total account takeover?
This is not black and white. It is possible to encourage 2FA but allow to opt out. The same for phone numbers.
And that's why companies enforce 2FA: they want your juicy phone-number or other data. And yeah, maybe they also want to reduce support costs and avoid bad publicity. Still, it's not in your interest, it's in theirs.
If they at least would allow for a sufficient number of options. Like paper-tan (even self printed), yubikey or similar, second email address, an authenticator, ... but even big companies often only require a phone number.
EDIT: Yes, Google offers more than a phone number when creating a gmail account. I didn't say they don't. However: they don't make it easy and I would even go as far as saying that they are evil here. If you don't believe me, try to create a gmail account right now and don't google/search how to do it without phone number.
Which is okay, because it is a business.
If society wants homeless people to have reliable access to email without having SMS 2FA or whatever requirements a business requires, then society should elect a government to provide it as a utility.
There is no reason to expect or want businesses to pick up the slack for the government not providing adequate safety nets. Let businesses be businesses, and let governments handle redistributing wealth.
Initiatives at for profit corporations will always exist within some business constraints, shareholder obligations, and so forth.
It would be very reasonable for governments to provide tax-supported digital services. I could easily imagine that spending a few dollars per year to provide the homeless with basic digital services would pay off simply in easing administrative overhead.
But we don't do it, because, in America, our sense of what government can or should provide is atrophied, and we, mistakenly, look to private actors to provide basic public services.
I don't think this matches reality. The US government is doing more today than any time point in the past. Spending and taxation as a percent of dgp is at an all time high.
There's also a sense that nobody should have to do anything themselves. There's nothing stopping anyone from talking to a homeless person and helping them set up an email account without 2fa.
While public spending as a % of GDP has indeed increased, that's primarily driven by two things: increased defence (and related) spending, and increased spending on health costs.
In the US, the growth in social assistance spending over the last 3 decades is driven almost entirely by the latter: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-expenditure-as-per....
At the same time, we continue to believe in privatizing basic government services: outsourcing social assistance to charities (including religious charities), outsourcing military and intelligence functions to mercenaries, or, on point for this thread, outsourcing ID verification to VC-funded private startups.
This excludes military spending and is adjusted for the purchasing power of those dollars.
I don't know about you, but I don't feel like we are getting 450% more value out of the government services. The numbers are pretty clear that the government is collecting more and more inflation adjusted dollars from people's income than ever before.
I Suspect we would probably agree that the government is not being a responsible steward of this money that it is collecting.
My primary point was that I don't think that the belief that a decrease in government spending and Revenue is reflected in the numbers. Further, I think it is important to push back on the idea that the systemic issues we see can simply be solved by throwing more money into an increasingly inefficient system.
Can governments (not necessarily the federal government) run a public service internet system? Sure, and probably more easily than we can, as another poster suggested, regulate tech companies into providing the right tradeoffs for housed and unhoused users.
When it comes to the right trade-off for the housed and the unhoused in terms of email service, I'm skeptical that the solution is regulatory. It seems like there is a large number of email providers that already offer what the homeless need. The problem is simply setting them up with the correct provider and user settings.
This seems like a job for people that work with the homeless.
But, look at that: the federal government already provides the homeless with cell phones. Yet instead of arguing that the government should also provide free email—which of course costs far less than cell service—the poster argues that existing commercial services should better serve the homeless.
Which, of course, would be nice! But my point was that this kind of argument seems to reflect a mistaken perception of free online services as some sort of social service, with commensurate obligations.
It seems like we basically agree.
It might be legal and maybe even legitimate, but OP said:
> This isn't a "fuck the people who don't have regular access to a phone, they don't matter" situation.
So yeah, those people don't matter (enough) in the sense that it's not worth to offer more methods of 2FA. Let's not pretend otherwise.
I struggle to see a reasonable possibility to the government either directly or legislating others to provide identification and communications services. One of the greatest utilities in the US is USPS, a monumental accomplishment to be able to provide communications to all people in the US.
Tacking on email (and identity verification services - which USPS already does via passports) should be a no brainer.
It is possible. And, as far as understand it, the teams at Google in charge of this have evaluated this option and found that it leads to more lost accounts.
The people responsible for user authentication at Google are in a completely different part of the company as advertising and, in my experience, are especially stubborn about their focus on security. "This is about phone numbers" doesn't make sense to me given my personal experience.
> If they at least would allow for a sufficient number of options. Like paper-tan (even self printed), yubikey or similar, second email address, an authenticator, ... but even big companies often only require a phone number.
We are talking about Google specifically here, which offers all of these options.
2FA is a major hassle for support when users get locked out because they smash their phone or change phone numbers or somehow lose access to the 2FA method. But, the benefits of 2FA largely outweigh those downsides for the majority of users. Offering the choice though, is something we think is important.
That's all I'm asking for as a user - thank you for being on the good side. Optimally you allow for multiple MFA options, so that I can e.g. use an authenticator app and a yubikey, as well as a recovery code in my bank.
You might be surprised to learn that this is how it works for Google accounts: it is default-on but you can turn it off.
> If they at least would allow for a sufficient number of options. Like paper-tan (even self printed), yubikey or similar, second email address, an authenticator, ... but even big companies often only require a phone number.
You might be even more surprised to discover that all of these options are supported for Google accounts.
However, Google tries _very hard_ to prevent people from e.g. creating a gmail account without a phone number. Try it if you don't believe me.
No doubt they're letting me through because some security heuristic says I'm a real human, and I'm sure they'd eventually make me provide a number if I continued using the account (this happened to me with my university G Suite account a couple years ago and I needed to contact my IT department to manually disable the phone challenge), but so far I can't see any evidence that they're doing anything unreasonable.
Perhaps they're requiring you to use a number because you've tested it a lot.
We all knew password, no problems at all. Now it mandates 2FA. And because they mandate it for Google Ads, now it's on for everything like Google Drive etc.
Google seems to support all of those?
Hint: it is still possible to create a gmail account without phone number, but it has become quite tricky to do so.
Nope. Not possible.
Oh how I would love to be proven wrong though.
Which leads me back to the point made elsewhere in this thread: we have too high an expectation for what private companies can or should do, because they have taken the place in our minds if government.
And our expectations for what government can or should do are too limited, because we've convinced ourselves government is ineffective and unaccountable.
I've personally bought/subscribed to various companies both personally and professionally. Just recently (a couple of weeks ago) I evaluated a couple of mailproviders. I discarded all of those that enforced 2FA with a phone-number.
For instance mailgun. At least the support helped me:
> Hello XXX, > > Thanks for bringing this to our attention. > > At this time, I have successfully activated your account so that it is now fully operational and you are all set! You may need to log out, then back in, to reflect this change. Also, your users can indeed utilize Google Auth without using a phone number. > > Please reach back out if any other questions arise. > > Regards, > XXX | Mailgun by Sinch
Others weren't as flexible. E.g. Sendgrind:
> Hello, > > Thanks for reaching out to Twilio SendGrid Support and for your interest in our products. My name is XXX and I’ll be more than happy to assist you in this matter. > > I am sorry for the inconvenience caused by the 2 Factor Authentication process, but this is mandatory for all accounts, as a security feature. > The only options available are to setup 2FA through Authy: to receive an SMS code or use the Authy app, which you can download here. > > I apologise for the inconvenience caused by the fact that we do not have any other options available at the time. > > Please do let me know if you have any additional questions in regards to this matter and I will be more than happy to further assist. > > Kind Regards, > > XXX | Technical Support Engineer Twilio-Sendgrid
Forcing me to use your own homegrown authenticator or a phone number? No thank you.
In the end I decided for a provider that offers 2FA but offers multiple options and doesn't enforce it.
Doesn't matter if I pay or not, really.
That is like saying 'if the DMV didn't offer IDs to people, no one would complain about not being able to get an ID'.
The fact of the matter is that email is 'de facto' online ID, and gmail has positioned itself into this role. They are now a societal need, not a luxury. They need to be regulated.
One doesn't need Gmail to have a functioning email address.
If email is a societal requirement--and maybe it is, or should be--public utilities should provide it.
It's easy to build an email provider. Why shouldn't your state or local government provide one?
The claim in the link is that homeless people lose every single one of their possessions after a period of time. They also have minimal access to support structures that could be used as a recovery system. We've had decades of work on authentication and pretty much every solution either involves using a password manager to create unique passwords or having possession of a physical thing.
That won't at all bother anyone homeless, because there's never been a homeless person who was a conspiracy theorist.
(Obvious sarcasm detected)
The best I can think of is trusted backup accounts, which already exist. A homeless person with regular attachment to a family member or a social worker could set up that person's account as a backup. But this already exists and is likely to fail for a large number of homeless people, who tend to struggle at maintaining long term relationships with family members or social workers who'd be able to help them.
The solution is very simple. Don't force 2FA. I'm sure most homeless people would rather risk the unlikely case of their accounts being hacked if they didn't choose a strong enough password to memorize than risk getting locked out of their accounts permanently.
You can encourage 2FA but forcibly enabling it for everyone does more harm than good, especially to homeless people but also non-tech-savvy parents and such (though the latter would be more likely to have a working recovery method).
And then in alternative-universe HN people are complaining about the rate of account takeovers via credential stuffing and calling Google irresponsible for making it easy to disable a powerful security measure.
> You can encourage 2FA but forcibly enabling it for everyone does more harm than good
I'd wager that pretty much the only people on the planet who can definitively say this are the people who handle account takeovers and lockouts of large email services. My understanding is that the folks at Google responsible for this have concluded that making it behave the way it currently does is the setup that causes the fewest people to lose access to their accounts.
The tech industry self-styles as the smartest people in the world, who try to solve the hardest problems. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't throw our hands up when we can't immediately come up with a solution to something we only learned about five minutes ago.
Treating the tech industry as a magical black box that can "solve anything" is disingenous and dangerous. This is the exact same attitude that leads to things such as legislation that says "find a way for any communication to be decrypted upon subpoena. You're tech people, figure it out"
I think this is a good point, but the catch is that there's an implicit footnote that needs to be attached to "the hardest problems*": "*Which generate sufficient monetary returns". This particular problem isn't one that has much revenue potential.
The key takeaway is not about how we should promote 2FA or how we should promote long ass passwords, the main issue at hand is google's neglectful lack of customer support.
I was once caught in this non-sense many moons ago. But I learned my lesson, I absolutely do not rely on any google products for anything that has any potential to impact me personally (with the unfortunate exception of the Android OS on my phone).
Google as a brand is absolutely dead in the water for anyone that has woken up from the 'Don't be evil' kool-aid of the early days.
Imagine Google had a full service customer support system for account recovery that everybody could access rapidly. How would a homeless person use it? They lose all their possessions regularly so they don't have a reliable form of identification. They'd need to enroll their drivers license (which they probably don't have) in the system and then still have that license when they need to recover their account. Or they could be vouched for by a pre-enrolled trusted party account that does have strong authentication systems. But... homeless people are often transient and don't have access to regular support networks like a family member or social worker who could be enrolled as a backup account. In fact, you can already enroll as backup account if you want to.
> Google as a brand is absolutely dead in the water for anyone that has woken up from the 'Don't be evil' kool-aid of the early days.
Google has a pretty bad reputation at this point on tech blogs and forums. But, believe it or not, it actually shows up near the very top of trusted brands when 3rd party analysts do surveys on the wider population. Maybe this data is wrong, I don't know. But it is interesting.
Customer support is the main entrypoint into 99% of sim swapping attacks and would be similarly for any targeted account takeovers. What sort of information do you possibly think would be enough to prove someone actually owns a Google account over the phone?
they're smart, I'm sure they can find a way, even if it contains such horrible, detestable ideas like "more support staff" and "more training for support staff"
The answer has been figured out by the highly trained engineers. It's "don't provide account recovery options that bypass 2fa". Yeah that sucks for a segment if people, but it sucks less than regularly getting your account stolen due to a social engineering attack. There really, truly, doesn't exist a panacea. You don't have and can't create an oracle that knows when an account recovery attempt is legitimate or not.