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Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by jandrese on Thursday October 06, 2022 @02:56PM (#33112439)
Might be a good time to look into home battery systems. Regular 3 hour blackouts are exactly the sort of situation where they shine. It's even possible to build DIY systems out of rack batteries and generic charge controllers, although you will need permits and probably professional install to hook it to your home electrical panel.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by tnjm on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:32PM (#33112884)
I installed a backup system (in the greenhouse rather than the house... priorities) to cope with these kinds of problems.

Using a Victron Multiplus 1.6kVA system with 2x 110Ah 12V Gel batteries was remarkably cheap and simple. The whole lot came to just over €1k and took ~1h to set up, mostly setting jumper switches.

It keeps the pellet boiler, circulation pumps, backup gas heaters and control gear going all night when necessary. The automatic switchover from mains (<20ms) is so fast that none of the PLCs, Arduinos, Raspberry Pis or heating equipment notices. Upgrading its capacity simply involves plugging in another 2x batteries (it's a 24v unit) in parallel.

The only thing I wasn't thrilled about was that it doesn't protect against power surges, and a storm fried the boiler logic board AND the gas valve in the backup heater simultaneously in midwinter. (Victron unit was fine though!) Lesson learned.

A similar installation in the house could easily power our (non-electric) central heating system, LED lighting and wifi for plenty long enough to stay civilized, and we're being prepared for 2 hour rolling blackouts here this winter.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by sebazzz on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:33PM (#33112911)
Word of warning: Just like solar inverters, not every home battery system is made to be grid independent. For instance, the Tesla Powerwall does, but the Sessy home battery does not and needs an active AC sinus on the grid.

Even if you do have a home battery system that can generate its own sinusoidal AC wave, you still need an (automatic) transfer switch to disconnect your home from the failed grid, otherwise your home battery might be attempting to power the entire (local) grid which of course doesn't work.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by chasd00 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:51PM (#33113164)
> otherwise your home battery might be attempting to power the entire (local) grid which of course doesn't work.

and some random line worker may think there's no electricity flowing when there is.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by bityard on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:02PM (#33113301)
Line workers are trained to never assume a line is de-energized, those that forget don't live very long.

(But yes, backfeeding the grid during an outage is dangerous and highly against code.)

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by Syonyk on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:18PM (#33113501)
> and some random line worker may think there's no electricity flowing when there is.

If you have lines in an unknown state, step 1 is to put them in a known state. For power line work, this involves grounding all the phases and neutral together at both ends of the section you intend to work on. Good luck ringing a dead short with your home inverter/generator/etc.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by benj111 on Friday October 07, 2022 @06:58AM (#33119638)
Off topic but I've always thought of grounding as conceptually making the entire earth a part of the circuit and so dispersing the energy over a very large area.

Is that conceptualisation correct?

What happens is you have say a conductive (iron rich) top layer. Is there still the potential to dangerously energise the ground? I assume so because that's basically what water and electricity does?

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by gubby on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:40AM (#33120412)
Grounding isn't really about dispersing energy over an area, it's about creating a situation where faults can be detected and circuits automatically opened to prevent shocks or fires. It actually gets very involved to reason through the exact purpose of ground connections when you start considering all the different types and combinations of faults (indoors, outdoors, person in contact with true earth, person touching exposed metal pipe, etc etc).
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by everforward on Monday October 10, 2022 @01:07PM (#33153891)
Not an electrician, so someone else may have better info.

Grounding provides an alternate path for the flow of electricity, so if a wire comes loose and ends up touching a copper pipe or something the current gets routed into the ground rather than into pipes or flammable wood or something.

Dispersal over an area isn't directly the goal, but it helps. By dispersing the current into an extremely large object, you don't really have to worry about the object building up a charge to the point where you can't flow current into it anymore.

Yes, you can dangerously energize the ground. You can dangerously energize almost anything with enough voltage. E.g. a Tesla coil has enough voltage to conduct through air. Don't try to test it (obviously), but I don't think a standard 110V house grounding has enough voltage to dangerously energize ground over any significant distance.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by brnt on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:40PM (#33113800)
> not every home battery system is made to be grid independent.

In Europe you should check if grid-independence is even legal. In some places it is not.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by kiratp on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:53PM (#33114584)
I've always wondered, what if you were to wire up a panel and one light to the grid, but the then rest of the house is on a separate independent circuit? Technically the house is on-grid...
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by cryptonector on Thursday October 06, 2022 @06:47PM (#33115112)
You could get caught if ever there's a fire, or you need an electrician and you forget to undo that before the electrician gets there, or if there's some sort of code inspection.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by benj111 on Friday October 07, 2022 @07:03AM (#33119674)
I don't think it's that simple. These circuits are already a thing in the form of solar powered security lights, and shed lighting kits.

I suspect the dividing line is voltage? >50v systems in cars are treated differently, so maybe the same for houses, you probably don't need that much for lighting anyway.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by LtWorf on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:31PM (#33114352)
It's legal, they just won't pay you subsidies for solar panels.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by brnt on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:10AM (#33117666)
If and how panels are incentivized varies from country to country.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by dijonman2 on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:42AM (#33118142)
This is one of those laws that you should want to break. I’d rather have energy independence than follow rules.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by Ajedi32 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:22PM (#33113562)
What's the point of a home battery system that doesn't work when the grid is down? What else would you use the battery for?
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by jandrese on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:31PM (#33114353)
It can be useful in cases where you have Time of Use metering. You can charge your battery in the middle of the day when energy is cheap due to solar overproduction and then draw down the battery in the evening when power is expensive. If you have it tied to solar panels you can even charge the battery with solar and then sell it back to the grid in the evening. In a few places you can even do "peak shaving" where the power company will give you a pretty nice bonus for switching your battery into grid-feed mode when the demand is so high that they are considering turning on expensive peaker plants.

Most people unfortunately can't take advantage of this, but most battery packs are also suitable for off-grid use.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by AdamJacobMuller on Thursday October 06, 2022 @06:09PM (#33114735)
Not even just time-of-use metering. If you lack net metering (e.g. you can't use the grid as a battery) then using a battery when your solar is not producing (enough) reduces your overall consumption.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by Chris_Newton on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:40PM (#33113811)
What else would you use the battery for?

Efficiency.

You can store excess energy from local microgeneration, particularly solar, that can be used later. With our current pricing model in the UK, that is several times cheaper than selling the excess power to the grid for a token return and then paying full price to have the same amount back from your mains supply later.

Some systems can even be configured to charge their battery from the mains at quiet times (when, again in a typical UK pricing model, the cost-per-unit can be much lower) if there isn’t enough local generation to fully charge it, for example in the middle of winter.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by shagie on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:43PM (#33114481)
Arbitrage - especially given that it is a value that is guaranteed to have differences on a day cycle.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/utility-scale-battery-stora...

https://www.ny-engineers.com/blog/two-ways-to-use-grid-tied-...

Things like https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/products-and-services/custo... note the https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/products-and-services/custo... - the CGS Plus and Smart Export involve use of a battery that isn't necessarily home power sufficient.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by calsy on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:14PM (#33114193)
A home battery system stores the excess solar energy generated during the day so you can use it at night. It's about long term savings on electricity bills.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by ok_dad on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:29PM (#33113663)
For homes, you store solar in it and discharge at night to reduce bills. For commercial, you do peak shaving and load shifting to reduce bills. Also, you can sell your battery capacity to some companies and they can aggregate it with other homes in your area to sell the capacity to the grid during peaks, to eek out a bit more value.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by Chris_Newton on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:36PM (#33113748)
My family live in a rural area. For a while, we had an unusually high frequency of power cuts around here. If I understood correctly, it was something to do with recurring problems with the overhead lines supplying local substation(s). Mostly it was just a few seconds or maybe a few minutes, enough to reset equipment and cause some irritating disruption but not catastrophic. Occasionally, though, the supply did cut out for a much longer time and you had to start thinking about whether you really needed to open the fridge/freezer right now.

Between that experience and the environmental benefits, we were already discussing installing a big solar panel and battery system at our home with local suppliers, even before the recent dramatic price rises and the bizarre news that in the 21st century there’s a credible threat of rolling blackouts here.

I can tell you from first-hand experience that getting such a system professionally installed and commissioned is likely to be a long wait and then cost a small fortune. Systems that can keep the household power on when the mains supply cuts out can require jumping through extra regulatory and consent hoops before anyone installs the new gear alongside a mains supply. You’ll also have fewer and often much more expensive options for the hardware than systems designed for efficiency/environmental benefits but not resilience to outages.

Of course it might still be a very good idea to do this, if you’re lucky enough to meet the practical requirements and have the money to do it. But it’s definitely not going to be some DIY system you can build for £1,000. More like £10,000–20,000 and several months of waiting for an installation date, at least in this area.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by tnjm on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:04PM (#33114088)
Very true. An alternative is to install a lower-spec off-the-shelf charger/inverter for closer to £1k though, and instead have a handful of sockets with backup power. Being able to charge your phone and laptop, keep the fridge/freezer running and have at least some light is still magical.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by Chris_Newton on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:28PM (#33114317)
Anything like that is better than nothing, for sure. Personally, we already have various critical equipment on UPS.

Having to work out what is protected and for how long gets old pretty quickly, though. So do alarms going off in one room or another if the mains supply cuts out in the middle of the night, when everyone is (was) probably sleeping anyway. Or occasionally annoyances like waking up to find a big job scheduled to run overnight hasn’t actually run because the system that should have run it executed a controlled power-down after an earlier power outage instead.

In contrast, a relatively large but domestic-scale battery system can easily store 10kWh or more of usable energy these days and provide it to anywhere in the building. That’s enough to run most of our house for 24h, as long as we avoid using very high consumption devices for extended periods or running too many of them at once with peak consumption levels higher than the equipment supports — a huge upgrade compared to the small-scale alternatives.

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by thehappypm on Thursday October 06, 2022 @06:03PM (#33114681)
I used to trigger my fuses in my apartment a lot, so I got a UPS power strip. I connected it to my router so the internet would stay on in case I was on a work call or something.

Maybe that’s the simplest solution. Every important appliance has its own UPS. Small UPS’s like that require no setup or permits and just kinda work.

I wonder if you could use one to power a fridge..

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by Scoundreller on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:11PM (#33114157)
As fridges increasingly become inverter-drive (ie: continuous drive), it’s my dream that one day they’ll have a 48VDC port and anyone can setup a PV on them, no permit required. Or bypass their inverter from their battery bank (before the fridge rectifies it and inverts it again).

It’ll use solar when available and grid for the rest.

Since it’s inverter drive, it can use whatever amperage comes in, even if it means running a 5% duty cycle and do at least something. The contents are the battery!

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by petre on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:32AM (#33117466)
They might use a switching power supply on the rectifier side, which works anywhere from 100 to 240V.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by barbariangrunge on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:54PM (#33113971)
Imagine the size of the opportunity here for green energy companies. Everybody whose ever wanted to pitch high efficiency building supplies or solar panels is finally going to get peoples attention. This could be huge over the next 10 years
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by yourusername on Friday October 07, 2022 @06:59AM (#33119643)
Solar panels already had a waiting list. Waiting list is a lot longer and installation is more expensive now.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by lavezzi on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:02PM (#33116170)
> Might be a good time to look into home battery systems. Regular 3 hour blackouts are exactly the sort of situation where they shine.

nm I dumb

Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by c3534l on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:24PM (#33116357)
Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the blackout? The point is to force people to use less electricity. All you're doing is cheating the system by stockpiling it before the cutoff.
Re:UK Plans for Three-Hour Power Blackouts in Event of Gas S... by fy20 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:56PM (#33116933)
Bear in mind that if you plan to recharge from the grid when the power is on, that's just going to exacerbate the problem of gas shortages.

In California or Texas you could recharge with solar, but in Europe, solar during winter is basically useless. I'm at 54N and in June my system generates 1400kWh, in December if I get 90kWh I'll be lucky.