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Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:45AM (#33054154)
This is the Motte and Bailey technique.

Attacking "Political Correctness" in a vague and non-specific way lets you sound noble.

As soon as you specify what that means in practice you just sound like a nasty bully (at best), so best leave that implied.

But a quick glance as the history of social science that these things are a direct response to, would reveal people "proving" that various groups are inferior in ways that mirror contemporary prejudices and reinforce right-wing politics that consistently builds hierarchical models to justify current social inequalities.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by mellosouls on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:51AM (#33054186)
Your insults against people like Haidt for taking a stand against ideological bullying demonstrate exactly why such stands are needed.
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Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by mellosouls on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:04AM (#33054257)
I think this is the quote you mean, which sounds very very different to yours?

a newly adopted requirement that everybody presenting research at the group's conferences explain how their submission advances "equity, inclusion, and anti-racism goals."

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Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by mellosouls on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:09AM (#33054293)
That's from the article, where did he say your direct quote?
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Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by mellosouls on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:12AM (#33054311)
Haidt quit because the university said "we want a more diverse staff."

Those quotation marks would disagree...

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by AbrahamParangi on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:59AM (#33055905)
Comments are judged by what is written in them, not what’s intended.
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Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by dang on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:34PM (#33058816)
You're getting downvoted and flagged because you're breaking the site guidelines by going on about getting downvoted and flagged. It's tedious and off topic. Please stop now.
Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by deathlight on Sunday October 02, 2022 @07:59AM (#33055153)
You still don't get it so it does not surprise me if people pile on.
Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by thinkingemote on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:12AM (#33054308)
This comment doesn't really explain the conflict, if it was a response to the ELI5 request.

Instead it seems to be at best discounting that there is a conflct to explain or at worse is participating in the conflict by defending one side of it.

I think a stronger case could in theory be made that the conflict is non existent but it's a harder position to advocate.

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Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by collegeburner on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:34AM (#33054436)
does it rly change anything? like, take sports. asians have some structural advantages (endomorphism and limb to body ratio) for lifting, west africans at mnay explosive/power sports (fast twitch muscle concentration, arms/legs to body), east africans at long-distance running etc. (lighter structure, efficient muscles over long term), whites at swimming (shoulder structure & torso length).

should we stop large swathes of research into athletic performance? bc i guess it doesn't provide sufficiently "antiracist" outcomes?

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:41AM (#33054465)
Studies that show the genetic diversity of the continent of Africa are in fact "anti-racist".

They truthfully reveal that the psuedoscientific 19th century ideas we refer to as race had no scientific basis. Some people really haven't taken this "truth" well though.

They still try to fit every new fact into their old model.

Like "West African Scorpios" are much more open to emotion, while "East African Scorpios" are open to new experience. So should we stop all research into Astrology?

Yes, because it's psuedoscientific nonsense that only distracts from the actual truth.

This current controversy includes the attempts to stop exactly this, with rules saying if you do medical research, and classify people by "race" then you need to explain who made this classification and why. Because a Brazilian looking a photos might put people into different races than an American or Japanese researcher, which might differ from the subjects chosen race, which definately differs from their genetic race, because genetic races don't exist.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by collegeburner on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:59AM (#33054539)
i mean, i agree they're imperfect but there's also not "0 basis". if nothing else they may continue to associate with stuff because society often sees them as coherent groupings.

but cool, now suppose some study has a result i can't spin as "anti-racist". what do?

also you seem well-intentioned but your definition seems wildly different from kendi's defining anti-racism to include support for present discrimination to "remedy" past.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:26AM (#33054665)
It's clear you haven't read what they are asking people to do.

You've read Haidt's take on it and have been misled, as intended.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by collegeburner on Sunday October 02, 2022 @11:37AM (#33056845)
yeah, i've read it. they're requiring people to write statements on whether/how their research advances the stated goals of the society in this area. next year, they will make it part of the scoring rubric for submissions.

here's the thing: "anti-racism" is being used as a motte-and-bailey argument. it's basically dogwhistling an intent to promote present discrimination (c.f. kendi) even if they're using a different definition that doesn't explicitly state that, because it's how that term has been widely used and understood. but when people take issue with it, they can be like "oh our definition doesn't say that." and ngl i find it pretty disingenuous.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by chaxor on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:32PM (#33058803)
I don't understand the argument that genetics isn't correlated with race. I would imagine a better argument is that it's a spectrum - but the fact is that when plotting the principle components of any large scale set of human genetic data from around the world, self reported race actually clusters (PC isn't even a clustering technique) quite well. So the fact that the axes of tbe largest explained variance of the data (PC_0 and PC_1) correlates with self reported race is hard to mend with the idea that is loudly exclaimed in academia that race isn't genetic. Am I missing some important subtlety here? While I agree that we need to do as much as possible to eradicate the awful racism we see in far too many places today, this idea to turn a blind eye to the largest explained variance in large scale genetic studies by saying it doesn't exist is perplexing.
Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by dekhn on Monday October 03, 2022 @12:45PM (#33070039)
It's correct to say that: there is a genetic history to all humans, and that history roughly correlates with pre-scientific clustering of humans by visible attributes.

The academic claim that "Race is not scientific" is really an overstatement of the case being made by people who are very optimistic but also fairly good at overlooking some fairly well understood science. It's not a universally held opinion but most people who disagree with it are fairly circumspect because it's very easy to get cancelled by talking about race and science in public.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:48PM (#33058960)
Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:53AM (#33055867)
What's that research going to be used for? Will it become of the basis of policy that says 'only asians are allowed to enter the power lifting club', 'only east africans on the running team', 'only white land owning men are allowed to vote'.
Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by Stupulous on Sunday October 02, 2022 @11:09AM (#33056539)
Setting aside the question of whether the truth should be suppressed because of consequences, this kind of research could very easily be beneficial.

Suppose you find out that the green people from East Arbitria are less productive. The immediate effect is that an innocent objective employer who being tried for discrimination or hated by a community no longer has to suffer- the cruelty of the universe is no longer being made anyone's fault. The secondary effect is that we now have grounds to investigate why Arbitrarians have that disadvantage. Maybe green people have a harder time metabolizing a nutrient; a non-issue with the diet/climate/lifestyle of Arbitria. An update to health recommendations later and millions of people's lives are improved.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:18PM (#33057989)
It would also mean that people could use this to say "All East Arbitaria people are less productive than all other ethnicities, therefore I shall ban them from my workplace. I am not anti-Arbitrian, I am just using the latest science". And of course these things are always statistical and so high performing East Arbitarians are going to be shut out of work because of this study.

The point is, there is a history of race-based discrimination in the world and researchers can't just pretend that it doesn't still exist when constructing these kinds of studies and how their outcomes could be used negatively by both benevolent and malevolent actors. It isn't just 'truth or not truth', also because lots of sociological studies aren't repeatable and many others suffer all sorts of issues with methods, populations, etc. Measuring people is crazy hard to do reliably. Anyway, my hot take is that its not a simple question and does not have a simple answer.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by collegeburner on Sunday October 02, 2022 @11:15AM (#33056612)
1. we don't know how a piece of research will be used because we don't even know what the outcome will be.

2. rarely is a piece of research only used for 1 thing, and even if someone uses it wrongly, maybe someone else uses it for good purpose or builds on it for an important discovery.

3. the correct answer is to address the person attempting to abuse the data when that person does it not to attempt to suppress that information by preventing the research or limiting how it's done.

4. are you saying we shouldn't do research on e.g. whether certain groups are better at lifting because it could be abused?

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:56PM (#33057752)
The question of whether certain research should be banned because of the potential outcomes is one with deep philosophical roots and the basis of much science fiction. The 'just because we could do something, doesn't mean we should' question. I don't think there is a single absolute answer to this, as context matters.

What I do see is a long history of race-based 'science' being used to justify some pretty terrible policies and laws.

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by dekhn on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:18AM (#33056064)
It doesn't matter. Why would it?
Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by jknoepfler on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:56AM (#33056387)
One might respond along the lines of: "why are we investing in ways to operationalize a concept of 'superiority' in the first place?"

The long lesson from the history of this research is that it produces garbage wrapped in a thin veneer of credibility, and becomes a weapon to justify or deepen real existing problems. It doesn't matter if it gets debunked eventually, the problem is how it is used now."

edit: (I don't know that I'm happy with either pole in this debate, but it seems like a good thing to worry about)

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by yakshaving_jgt on Sunday October 02, 2022 @11:36AM (#33056830)
> One might respond along the lines of: "why are we investing in ways to operationalize a concept of 'superiority' in the first place?"

Becomes sometimes it's important. The efficacy of modern medicine is not uniform across ethnic groups. To deny this fact would effectively be to deliberately withhold treatment from some groups of people. Does that seem fair and just to you?

- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2594139/

- https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/pharmacogenetics-p...

Re:Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to qui... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:52PM (#33057716)
That's not fair, they should encourage people to include:

> Diverse research participants (e.g., understudied or underserved populations)

or in case it's due to the team they should also probably encourage:

> Diverse members of the research team (e.g., those from underrepresented sociodemographic backgrounds, from an array of career stages, from outside the United States, or with professional affiliations that are not typical at SPSP such as predominately undergraduate serving institutions, minority-serving institutions, or outside academia)

Hopefully if thay do that won't be portrayed as a bad thing by anyone.