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Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by rahidz on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:28PM (#33048276)
So the only (weak) conclusion mentioned is the possibility that men are less ambitious/driven/motivated, meandering around from major to major; from job to job, while women know what they want and do everything possible to achieve it.

Which is odd, it seems like almost a reversal of the typical gender stereotypes (men are strong, ambitious, career driven; women are fragile lilies who don't really know what they want).

I'm curious, is this limited to the United States? And is it possibly something biological? (declining testosterone?)

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by stuckinhell on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:09PM (#33048604)
It's because women are given far more advantages in the corporate workplace. I'm a woman in tech, who is now a full time manager part-time developer.

I'm under extreme pressure to hire and promote female, lgbt, or poc developers (even if under qualified). Resumes are filtered by third party contractors before they even get to me, so our company has plausible deniability. We have third party diversity groups give seminars, that are borderline insidious because they imply all men are just handed their positions and money or there is a global conspiracy to keep women out of tech.

This causes me EXTREME difficulty because my team is extremely high performance highly technical and critical team. I cannot compromise on skills or allow a hire that would demoralize the team.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by musingmuslim on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:26PM (#33049777)
The same thing happens at my company as well. Preference is given to women or ppl from minority groups before hiring others (American males really). Hiring managers have to go through a period of only interviewing from these groups first, they will only then hire outside if the period passes and they don’t find a candidate.

I personally have worked with new hires that most certainly did not meet the bar but were hired because of their minority group to increase diversity. I really wondered how they passed their interview because their technical ability clearly did not meet the standard.

I was also involved in an interview with a candidate that was not qualified however the other interviewer passed them and said they’re giving them the benefit of the doubt because they were POC!!!

I’m all for diversity and increasing chances of folks from minority groups, but not at the cost of lowering the bar. Note that I’m not saying that ppl from minority groups are less competent, just that the bar is lowered for them when it’s not for others.

I myself am from a POC background and I really wonder if that was the case with me. Does it mean that Im less qualified and would not have been hired if I was not POC? It’s really not fair to me if so.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by s1artibartfast on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:27AM (#33054394)
While I agree that your experience is real, I don't think it is sufficient to explain the phenomenon described in the article. The actual phenomenon must be much wider in scope if elementary and middle school boys already have a significant motivational gap.

What you describe is but one symptom.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by JSavageOne on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:00PM (#33049041)
Can you define what you mean by "extreme" pressure (eg. any examples)? Where does this pressure originate from?

This all sounds insane to me and I wouldn't have believed this if not for the fact that I was once asked by the (female) founder of a company I worked for if I knew any female engineers looking for work because another friend of hers was looking to hire specifically female engineers. I was surprised and mentioned that being sexist and she didn't seem to see anything wrong with it. It's incredible what a double standard there is when it comes to sexism because if the genders were reversed, it'd be national news.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by karencarits on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:40PM (#33048871)
> I'm under extreme pressure to hire and promote female, lgbt, or poc developers

Out of curiosity; how would lgbt developers be identified in this case? Since sexual orientation is not visible per se and I guess you cannot ask, is one just looking for specific patterns of behavior or dressing etc?

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by stuckinhell on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:45PM (#33048920)
It's easy. People mention being part of various LGBT groups on their resumes, or they put rainbow flags on their social media. Sexual orientation is actually very visible these days.

Staffing agencies even have facets in their CRMs/spreadsheets list/search system to quickly identify candidates.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by stemlord on Saturday October 01, 2022 @07:08PM (#33051024)
>Sexual orientation is actually very visible these days.

Well, obvious selection bias at play-- only some lgbt people do this.

If any founders/managers/HR people are reading this: I say this as a member of the lgbt community: if sexual orientation is completely irrelevant to the actual work (don't kid yourself, it probably is), then promoting careerist opportunism over irrelevant aspects of one's identity is not helpful. We don't need handouts, we actually need the same level of respect as everyone else. Please stop treating sexuality as being up for exploitation.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by uejfiweun on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:29PM (#33049284)
Does this sort of thing actually help your career development in a meaningful way? This may sound fucked up but I'd happily put myself down as LGBT if I knew it would speed up my career ladder climbing.
Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by nickthegreek on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:26PM (#33049769)
At my job, we have 3 separate bonus referral rates. One for standard hire, an increased bonus if they are a veteran, and a higher one for poc/lgbt.
Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by lucaspm98 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:52PM (#33049997)
Am I crazy to think that is borderline illegal?
Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by trav4225 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:40PM (#33050389)
No.
Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by stemlord on Saturday October 01, 2022 @07:10PM (#33051036)
Imagine knowing you got a bonus because the person you referred is black/trans. That's so backwards and patronizing
Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by ReactiveJelly on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:32PM (#33049312)
How big is this corporation? I haven't seen this at my small company.
Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by dageshi on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:47PM (#33048425)
I have a theory that it comes down to women's biological clock. They know they will only have the option of having a child between certain age ranges (ideally) and that's close enough in the future to plan for.

They need good grades to get into college, they need college to have a career and establish themselves before they hopefully find a partner and have a child around 30ish?

Might not go according to plan, but it's a template of sorts.

Men really don't have anything like that, in the past perhaps there was, an expectation of getting educated and established by a certain age in order to attract a wife and provide for her and the family.

I think it probably leaves some men unanchored with no real direction or ambition, no clue even what they should do.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by dcolkitt on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:57PM (#33048505)
Seems like it's mostly driven by changes to the composition of the job market. 50 years ago many more good paying jobs required a degree of physical labor that heavily favored men. The economy today has shifted from manufacturing to the service sector, which favors cooperation and communication.

Women, even a hundred years ago, have always been more pro-social than men. They tend to have more friends, talk to their friends and family more often, know and ask more about the personal lives of the people around them. This far predates modernity, and has probably been true going all the way back to the neolithic era. The only difference is that in an age where email jobs have replaced the factory floor, the economic premium to these skills has gone way up.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by BlargMcLarg on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:02PM (#33048540)
Yet women are barely present in high-paying STEM fields, despite hundreds of incentives, while STEM jobs typically pay well and are relatively safe options career-wise. Furthermore, we see the differences in income primarily in the 20-30 bracket, where most would get their first job.

Despite the whole "cooperation and communication" argument, most individuals aren't going to be in such a position for quite a few years, where the income differences are. During those times, most individuals are stuck doing grunt work.

Call me crazy, but things don't add up here.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by dcolkitt on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:25PM (#33048748)
STEM is a pretty small subset of total employment, only about 5% of Americans. And it's not like most of the jobs pay astoundingly high.

By contrast healthcare is more than 3X the size of STEM, and when looking at new entrants is just as skewed towards women as STEM is to men. When you step outside STEM and healthcare, and look at high-paying jobs that actually employ at scale, you see that most of them heavily favor "soft skills". Attorneys, real estate agents, middle management, marketing, sales, speech pathology, graphic design. All of them are much more about working with people than working with things.

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by BlargMcLarg on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:39PM (#33048864)
Most of them heavily favor "soft skills" a few years in. You're not getting into middle management right off the bat without being given a priority lane (read: network / family favor). Graphic design is years of grunt work and pays shoddily. Marketing and sales aren't remotely about "cooperation and communication" as much as you claim they are. The only things remaining are speech pathology, attorneys and real estate agents, for which I have no anecdotal experience nor knowledge, and can only infer real estate agents behave similarly to sales.

Ultimately the point still stands. "Cooperation and communication" are not the super valued soft skills you claim they are in the initial years, which is about the only period women outperform men in earnings. Afterwards, women are left behind in the dust as a whole.

It's blatantly obvious there's more going on here than "women are better in the post-modern labor market".

Re:Why Men Are Hard to Help by strikelaserclaw on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:12PM (#33060846)
In my experience women have much better emotional control. I've seen so many women clearly express no interest in university classes but still be able to put the work in to pass. For men, I've seen that if they have no interest in something, they have a hard time getting themselves to see something through. On the other hand, I've also seen a small group of men become obsessive over something and pretty much neglect everything in pursuit of this obsession which I'm sure in the long term leads some of these men to be at the top of their fields.