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Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by smileysteve on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:51AM (#33047487)
The difficulties with gps seem over stated,

Which Track? Trains don't randomly switch tracks except in yards, instrumenting each switch to understand when a train switches tracks seems like an easy problem.

Tunnels? First there aren't "that" many and there aren't many long enough that a single long train shouldn't count it as occupied in the interest of safety. It also shouldn't be a high effort to add a satellite or wireless repeater with a known location at at least each end of a tunnel.

An arduino with GPS tracking an accelerometer (or gyro), a compass, add a few wireless location nodes around tunnels and other dead spots and every difficulty here is solved. The accelerometer can even early report rough tracks or switches.

What excuses the economist entertains while we have successful tracking in many other forms of transport.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by NamTaf on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:10PM (#33049621)
This is hilariously hand-wavey of the complexity and strikes at my frustrations between how most IT engineers see the world vs how real-world engineers do.

There are parallel tracks within metres of one another. Switching yards have tonnes of them and require precise knowledge of what’s in what.

GPS isn’t SIL.

Trains operate in cluttered environments with reflection and echo abound. That causes drift above the separation of tracks.

There’s way more than “a few” dead spots, and what happens if those repeaters fall over?

There’s tonnes of reasons why high tech isn’t used in train safety-critical systems. The fact you suggest an arduino as an appropriate platform for this is frankly absurd and underscores your misunderstanding of the whole issue.

Close enough isn’t good enough. Crashing doesn’t just mean you reboot or reload the program and try again. It means people die.

Edit to add: A good rule of thumb I’ve learnt after 15 years in the game: if you look at the solution to an engineering problem and then start a sentence with “why don’t they just…”, you probably don’t understand the problem well enough.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by naijaboiler on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:03PM (#33050086)
IT engineers routinely do that to other fields as well. I'm a doctor and tech guy. The amount of times I have to read the ignorant arrogance of some guy thinking some ML is about to replace doctors... I wish people will just stick to what they know best, and approach other fields with respectful curiosity.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by Schroedingersat on Saturday October 01, 2022 @08:02PM (#33051340)
> The amount of times I have to read the ignorant arrogance of some guy thinking some ML is about to replace doctors...

Don't worry, it will. A bunch of people will die afterwards, but they'll all be poor so noone will care when they look at how much it improved profits.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by smileysteve on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:35PM (#33050358)
I do have experience using location beacons where GPS isn't available, along with inferring location from other sensors though...
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by sudhirj on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:33PM (#33051878)
in systems where thousands of lives depend on your design working correctly even in adverse conditions like storms ?

Most of us have classifiers to tell if a picture is a hot dog or not a hot dog, but we don’t necessarily tell hospitals we’ve solved the problem of early cancer diagnosis.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by jen729w on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:29PM (#33049800)
> how most IT engineers see the world vs how real-world engineers do

Reminds me of…

# Programmers: Stop Calling Yourselves Engineers

“It undermines a long tradition of designing and building infrastructure in the public interest … The title ‘engineer’ is cheapened by the tech industry.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/progr...

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by porknubbins on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:18PM (#33051785)
But computer programming is an enormous field and there are types of programming that look very much like engineering- ie using the laws of science for practical applications. I agree a startup putting up a website isn’t engineering, but if building rockets is engineering (which it surely is) then building the software to safely operate those things is engineering too.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by abofh on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:46AM (#33053847)
In as much as brushing your teeth is dentistry, yes.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by smileysteve on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:23PM (#33050247)
But this is a "tech" problem where signals and switches operating by humans are error prone, and the technology to automate those exists.

The article is about a tech solution and deployment never able to come (in the U.S.)

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by zokier on Saturday October 01, 2022 @06:22PM (#33050694)
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by olivermuty on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:29PM (#33049799)
To be fair, «why don’t they just» has also made a lot of startup founders very wealthy over the last 15 years ;)
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by NamTaf on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:43PM (#33049943)
I’ll cop that, though I’m fairly confident in saying it’s the exception that proves the rule, in that those ones end up knowing the problem space so well that they sort of horseshoe around to seeing new insights others miss.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by bobthepanda on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:43AM (#33053527)
also, even though some startup founders have become very rich questioning the basics with technology, many more have failed.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by tazjin on Saturday October 01, 2022 @07:51PM (#33051277)
> This is hilariously hand-wavey of the complexity and strikes at my frustrations between how most IT engineers see the world vs how real-world engineers do.

This has become glaringly obvious after starting to learn how aviation works and working on getting a PPL. If you know about this tech, it's interesting to ask software engineers to invent something like ILS and see what they come up with. There's a tendency to both underestimate what is needed AND overengineer the solution.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by smileysteve on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:27PM (#33050282)
This wasn't a "why don't they just" response though because the article does touch on GPS and the issues it poses.

The Arduino comment was not supposed to be taken literally as a production solution.

There's a big difference between "why don't they just" and "these problems spelled it in the article seem overstated"

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by smileysteve on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:33PM (#33050340)
> There’s way more than “a few” dead spots, and what happens if those repeaters fall over?

Presumably, given the 2 sets of analog systems currently in place, you fail safe to the inefficient systems in the article, when a vehicle doesn't know it's location.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by robocat on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:32PM (#33051870)
That is even more hilariously hand-wavey, given you just got smoked for that.

Fail-safe systems are notoriously hard to design - what is the truth when one system is wrong? How do you detect that a system is giving the wrong answer (737MAX hardware sensor failure, software working exactly as very carefully designed)? Adding complexity decreases reliability unless some very deep voodoo engineering is applied.

I think you are thinking linearly, that two systems with a 1% failure rate could be put together to make a system with 0.01% failure rate. Bzzzzzzt, wrong, instead you could easily end up with a system with a 5% failure rate.

There are many sources of confounding variables: two systems tend to fail in the same complex corner cases, safety systems tend to have common dependencies (Fukushima tidal wave), and adding complexity to systems adds subtle failure modes.

Disclaimer: I would call myself a software engineer, because my definition of engineering is making good compromises. Other “engineering” disciplines very often work on non-safety critical systems, yet they are still called engineers. And these days software underpins most safety critical systems e.g. you depend somewhat that your CAD software or circuit analysis software returns the correct result, even though software usually disclaims all warranties/guarantees. The designers of the space-shuttle made safety compromises, but that was engineering. SpaceX followed a fail-fast approach, and I think software engineers have been innovating and optimising that methodology for many years (not saying it was invented by software engineers). Engineering for safety is an orthogonal skill to engineering discipline. Edit: wrench on your own vehicle safety systems, and you can’t help but notice multiple potential safety faults, often related to usability fails. Mechanical engineers design with unforeseen safety failure modes. Engineering is a spectrum. Making appropriate good compromises is engineering. Ingroup “engineers” versus outgroup “engineers” is miscategorisation and politics: especially considering the root of the word and that we use the word certified when we want a “real” engineer. https://probablydance.com/2022/09/17/finding-the-second-bug-... is an example of deep software engineering guruness, uncovering heisenbugs in complicated poorly written GNU glibc synchronisation primitives. My considered opinions.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by smileysteve on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:31PM (#33050319)
Coincidentally, I have worked with localized location beacons deployed to nationwide chains of stores that help you find the aisle the item you're looking for is on.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by matthewmacleod on Saturday October 01, 2022 @12:36PM (#33047859)
Of course, in reality you can't build safety-critical systems that operate in challenging rail environments by slapping together an Arduino, a GPS receiver, and an IMU and saying "problem solved lol".

None of the things you have described are "easy problems". In fact, they are pretty difficult! Systems need to be robust, interoperable, reliable, provably correct, fail safely, deal with surprising edge cases, have long service lives, and any number of other challenges.

In any case, all you've really done here is re-invent technology that already exists. In ETCS level 2, for example, the signalling system uses known-location transmitters on the track as references and the train calculates its position in-between using on-board sensors like axle encoders, IMUs etc.

This is just a short article about an interesting new technology for providing the "train position" component of the system by building a magnetic map of the rails. Pretty cool idea – if it's accurate enough, it provides a more robust source of absolute positioning information, which is key to allowing the rollout of realising "moving-block" approaches in which trains' movement authorities are updated in real-time, allowing higher traffic density.

And it's not like nobody's thought about GPS/GNSS either – there have been extensive projects looking into the feasibility of those systems. The Russian ABTC-M system uses GLONASS, and I'm sure some implementations of PTC in the US use GPS. But again, these are difficult challenges incorporating lots of different technology and you don't solve them overnight.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by kposehn on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:48PM (#33048951)
To be fair, Brazil has been using GPS-based dispatching for quite a while. While I haven't investigated their implementation in-depth, almost the entirety of the long distance rail network has switched to it and no longer uses wayside signaling, preferring to track entirely via GPS.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by flyinghamster on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:47PM (#33051967)
Cab footage implies otherwise, at least on freight lines in the Belo Horizonte region operated by MRS Logística. [0] It's anyone's guess how long that remains the case.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/c/MichaelRSilva/videos (captions in Portuguese)

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by kposehn on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:26PM (#33059883)
You're correct about MRS. They seem to be the last holdout on a number of lines. I believe almost the entire remaining network is on GPS now.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by sitkack on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:22PM (#33048226)
They should be solved asap. Increasing rail utilization is key to many of the problems we are facing. Rail can move cities, nothing else can do that.

Many of these things would be solvable by solar powered cameras on 4G/5G/starlink. Vibration sensors in the tracks, transponders in the cars, wheels, engines, etc. We need way more signals than we currently have.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by bobthepanda on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:45PM (#33048921)
Generally speaking, LIDAR or cameras on trains don’t solve much, because trains’ braking distances (and therefore what they need to “see”) extends for hundreds of meters, sometimes over a kilometer, and around curves, walls, etc. It’s a different problem space.

Rail utilization will certainly help at the margins, but only maybe one or two trains an hour. The real meat and potatoes is generally more tracks, and removing conflict points on existing ones.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by sitkack on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:48PM (#33048950)
You can dead reckon speed, location from camera lidar data, just like what they were doing with the magnetic map in the article.

I made no statements that the train would be locally self engineering using the cameras.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by bobthepanda on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:55AM (#33053584)
If dead reckoning is what you're relying on, you need

* the last junction you passed and how you exited, and

* number of turns of the wheel.

The issue is that rewiring junctions is very expensive, upgrading trains to be compatible is expensive, etc. Even more so if you cannot upgrade an entire network all at once, and you need to account for mixed operations with both new and legacy compatible systems.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by kposehn on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:52PM (#33048977)
Lidar on trains has some uses, but you're quite correct that it isn't the primary sensor. However, automating trains on heavy-haul networks like the US & Brazil is a big opportunity.

The pressure to reduce crew costs means longer trains and less network fluidity; automating them allows much shorter point-to-point consists on the same infrastructure. As long as they have the right sensors they can run much closer together - even couple & de-couple en route (with some extra equipment).

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by bobthepanda on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:45PM (#33049394)
This is already possible on small isolated networks (I think there are a few heavy haul lines like this in Australia.)

The issue with networks is that it is impossible to roll out automation all at once, and the intermediate mixed automated/non-automated network is more complex and harder to do safely and reliably.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by kposehn on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:29PM (#33059905)
I understand your thinking but don't agree. Automation can indeed be rolled out, as long as it fits cleanly within the existing network. A fully automated train that follows the same rules as non-automated would easily work. The challenge is you can't realize the network fluidity benefits until much later, vs. an all-at-once rollout.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by bobthepanda on Sunday October 02, 2022 @07:59PM (#33061727)
Ay, but there's the rub. It's challenging to do this well at the required level of reliability, and at a cheap enough cost to deploy at scale.

NYC has been moving to (theoretically automatable) CBTC signaling from mechanical signals. It's been challenging.

* The CBTC and mechanical interface has issues and constantly fails over the entire system

* The mechanical system is itself falling apart because it dates from the '30s, and is so old that the suppliers no longer exist and they source parts either from collectors on eBay or make it themselves, and this is also affecting the first bullet point

* Few modern suppliers of signaling actually sell fixed-block signaling that can handle the capacity required today, and even if they did, would it make sense to spend hundreds of millions or billions on a stopgap to CBTC, which will also cost hundreds of millions or billions?

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by 7952 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:02AM (#33054547)
Perhaps you could use fusion of cheaper sensors to provide good enough location information. What is lacking though is the software and regulatory framework to do that. It requires a change in philosophy. In the past you had an ensemble of data that had very good statistical reliability and could be a source of truth. We are moving to systems where individual sources of data lack that reliability due to physical limitations. That is a hard problem to solve. You can see similar issues in aviation.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by FredPret on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:47PM (#33049415)
>Systems need to be robust, interoperable, reliable, provably correct, fail safely, deal with surprising edge cases, have long service lives, and any number of other challenges.

Since many current systems do not meet those criteria (another comment mentions a “communication system” of writing down the day’s train drivers’ cell numbers on a note), I’d argue that any improvement towards an ideal system is a step up. We can’t wait for perfection.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by NamTaf on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:14PM (#33049670)
Those steps up already exist. The railway I work for has in-cab radios that we routinely measure the signal coverage to confirm minimal black spots, plus there’s also GSM phones (as in, hardwired in the driver’s cab), in all our locos.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by smileysteve on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:25PM (#33050257)
I never thought a comment about an Arduino and a few sensors would be taken so literally as a finalized product.
Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by Animats on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:19PM (#33049208)
> The difficulties with GPS seem over stated.

If anything, they are understated. GPS is so easy to spoof that it should not be used in a vital system.

Most train control systems have two completely separate systems. One keeps trains from running into each other, and the other makes the railroad run efficiently. The first usually depends on brutally simple and fail-safe wayside equipment. The second is based on direction from a control center somewhere. The second system is capable of keeping trains separated on its own, and it's so tempting to get rid of all that wayside safety equipment, with all that gear in trackside boxes needing maintenance visits.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by KaiserPro on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:19PM (#33049201)
> Which Track? Trains don't randomly switch tracks except in yards,

Track spacing is often much less than the dilution of position, which is less than ideal. This means that the area that the GPS thinks the train is, is bigger than the track width. Trains in the UK are often in cuttings, urban canyons etc, which means that the error margin could be up to 100m without much effort.

> instrumenting each switch to understand when a train switches tracks seems like an easy problem.

Only if you ignore that those sensors are now life critical, so is the connection, and the software that joins it all up.

> Tunnels? First there aren't "that" many and there aren't many long enough that a single long train shouldn't count it as occupied in the interest of safety.

again see DoP. But safety distance is related to speed. the slower the trains the shorter the distance, which means you are more likley to bump into GPS DoP issues. Also tunnels normally have cuttings, which again limit the number of satellites visible.

> It also shouldn't be a high effort to add a satellite or wireless repeater with a known location at at least each end of a tunnel.

again see safety critical equipment, you'll need fail safes

> The accelerometer can even early report rough tracks or switches.

Whats the percentage drift per second of those sensors? How often is the calibration frequency? how much vibration can it handle before it becomes inaccurate? whats the mean time to failure?

As a point, the "new" thameslink trains refused to open its doors at the thameslink station, because the station was in a tunnel, and the GPS wasn't available. This meant that the train said it didn't know where it was, so no doors open.

As a general rule of thumb, life critical stuff needs to be simple, well tested and well characterised. Failure of a system might cause a death, subtle failure is even more dangerous. This means expense.

Re:A new way of keeping trains apart uses magnetic signals i... by smileysteve on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:39PM (#33050379)
> Track spacing is often much less than the dilution of position,

Which is why I spell out to instrument the current reporting switches (which are the current systems (and yes they fail))

> As a general rule of thumb, life critical stuff needs to be simple, well tested and well characterised.

For context, my state leads in railroad crossing deaths, in part because the existing signaling infrastructure is too sparse or dilapidated. >