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Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by noir_lord on Friday September 30, 2022 @07:53PM (#33042220)
You can probably spot me at work because I use really simple words.

I write obviate then I re-read and replace it with “removes the need to do $foo.

Some writers at work forget that the goal of the written word is to communicate to the reader not impress them with word salad.

I regard it the same as clever code (note: not the same as complex code) - written for the author not the reader.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by cbozeman on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:15AM (#33044095)
William Faulkner:

"Ernest Hemingway: he has no courage, has never crawled out on a limb. He has never been known to use a word that might cause the reader to check with a dictionary to see if it is properly used."

Ernest Hemingway:

“Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use."

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by mdp2021 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:23AM (#33045225)
> not impress them with word salad

No. Look, I had some "fight" in these pages two days ago because somebody complained of my style.

It is the farthest from legitimate to suppose that one's intention is to impress - that is accusing people of childishness, and you need to have solid grounds to suppose that. There are higher chances that one wants to be _precise_.

That would be precision in the expression of some content, to have such expression match as perfectly as possible a defined structure of thoughts you elaborated. You may want to describe the facts precisely, and/or the mental processes that those facts provoke.

Also some image subtly (and not so subtly) emerged, days ago, of "language as a cage": but if you want to express exactly some "/that/", it is the language that will have to provide the means - as opposed to a horrifying idea of "expressing what language allows".

There are contexts in which it is of paramount importance that the reader understands the message (e.g. instructions) - pay attention towards using the most digestible expression then. But when you want your content to be expressed as the defined sculpture of structures of ideas, while many different expressions are possible they are pretty much "what they are, because they are what they should be".

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by SoftTalker on Friday September 30, 2022 @11:00PM (#33043413)
"Don't use a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do."

I would have sworn that was from Elements of Style but apparently it's a Mark Twain quote.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by MaysonL on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:55AM (#33044565)
“The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.” Mark Twain
Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by groffee on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:38AM (#33044194)
Arguably it's that kind of thinking that's destroyed society. Dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator.
Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by Shorel on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:47AM (#33044236)
I agree with the sentiment, but in some cases it is not dumbing down but making it clearer.

For me, the gold standard of this is Carl Sagan writings. Beautiful ideas, explained in the clearest language possible.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by denton-scratch on Saturday October 01, 2022 @08:04AM (#33045965)
Don't agree. Like the commenter upthread, I have for some years had the feeling that my language is bloated with subordinate clauses, and that I use too many ten-dollar words. It's easy to use flowery language to conceal from yourself the shallowness of your understanding. So I get out my Xacto knife, and cut out the crap. Sometimes.
Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by cbozeman on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:38PM (#33048361)
To quote the late philosopher Dr. Rick Roderick, "Deeply rooted in our culture is anti-intellectualism; our fear of eggheads. The work of intellectuals has always been separated off from the work of ordinary people - you have to be freed from the constraints of manual labor. When I was a dishwasher, I didn't have time to do this. Any time I was involved in manual labor, I didn't really have the time to do this intellectual work."

Most people do not have time, nor desire to do additional intellectual work after slaving away doing whatever it is they do for income.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by mdp2021 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:51AM (#33045341)
> destroy[ing] society

More precisely: not just having people less intellectually exercised¹, but also and especially creating some sort of "demand" that "things have to be simple". Non-recognition of complexity is also one of the cracks allowing populism. Your duty is to "spend one further thought", while some instances seem to defend an idea of an "as-if-constitutional right to reduced consideration".

(¹ I wrote the other day, «I also believe that "Now drop and give me twenty" will return us fitter personnel than "Please, be fed from a straw"»)

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by im3w1l on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:46AM (#33047443)
When I compare modern thinkers to those of say 150 years ago, I find that modern thinkers not only use a simpler style, the ideas are better too.
Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by fsckboy on Friday September 30, 2022 @11:26PM (#33043566)
As a sesquipedalian, my writing is sesquipedalian.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sesquipedalian

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by club_tropical on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:21PM (#33042437)
Your example doesn't match the principles you highlighted. Obviate->remove is replacing a perfect-fit with a generic alternative. "Obviate" was neither a word salad nor complex, it was straight up (marginally) better. This was a tradeoff to appeal to people whose vocabulary is narrow, not improve comprehension.
Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by noir_lord on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:35PM (#33042537)
People reading what I write are frequently users of English as a second language.

Expecting most of the English people to know obviate is pushing it, for someone using English as a second language it’s just adding complexity.

It’s about aiming where you expect the average reader to be.

Because you know the word don’t fall into the trap of assuming everyone else does.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by Shorel on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:50AM (#33044247)
Many times it's the other way around.

Obviate has several cognates in romance languages, so it is straightforward.

Now, the phrasal verbs that are so obvious to a native speaker, these are the real head-scratchers.

Or street slang. It may sound like dumbing it down to you, but it actually adds complexity for a non-native.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by Al-Khwarizmi on Saturday October 01, 2022 @06:06AM (#33045414)
Indeed.

"Register": I immediately know what it means and it takes tenths of a second for me to make the decision to click (or not to).

"Sign up": despite having a CEFR C2 level of English and using it at work every day, I still need to think for a few seconds if this is a registration or a login (cf. "sign in").

For a native speaker I suppose the latter is (marginally?) easier, but for a non-native, it's much harder, not even close.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by jsjohnst on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:16AM (#33046708)
Your examples are very illustrative, but I would argue that both phrases suffer from being too generic. I wish that there wasn’t such a push for “one word” CTAs. Examples of alternatives I’d advocate for depending on context:

“Create an account”

“Subscribe to mailing list”

“Submit contest entry”

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by groffee on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:38AM (#33044200)
Treating everyone like an idiot is just doing you and them a disservice. The word exists for a reason, use it.
Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by retrac on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:39AM (#33045294)
As a native speaker, it's very unpleasant to write like that. I will if necessary for effective communication, but it's like wearing a straitjacket. It can be awful to read, too. Rarer synonyms and the phrasal verbs (both commonly avoided in a simple style) are sometimes necessary to avoid excessive repetition.

It is one of the downsides of being a native speaker. I write pretty much like how I speak. It's hard to use it like a foreign language, but that's what technical international English feels like to me, in a way. In my experience, fluent second language learners master that style more easily than native speakers do.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by dlkf on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:04AM (#33044907)
> This was a tradeoff to appeal to people whose vocabulary is narrow, not improve comprehension.

”Comprehension” is not some audience-independent property of a text. Comprehension is what happens when a text is well-calibrated for an audience. If your audience is unlikely to know the word ”obviate” (which seems true of many engineering settings, where the audience is international), you absolutely improve comprehension by replacing it with words the audience is more likely to know.

I agree with you that ”obviate” sounds better, and in a setting like a blog post, monograph, or even an hn comment, that’s probably what I’d use. But in e.g. a work email for colleagues in another country, you reduce the risk of miscommunication by following OP’s suggestion.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by Timpy on Friday September 30, 2022 @08:49PM (#33042637)
Isn't that how communication works? Understanding your audience and "appealing" to them does improve comprehension for them.
Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by mdp2021 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:35AM (#33045281)
> your audience

There lies the spring coil. The less it is established what your audience is, the more you shift from "calibrated expression" to a form of expression which is as absolute and universal as possible. (See my previous post here, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33045225 .) If you have a message for an audience, you will try and condition its expression according the audience; the more the audience is abstract, the more the expression will be unconditioned, as if intended for an ideal audience.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by BurningFrog on Friday September 30, 2022 @10:07PM (#33043116)
Yeah, using words you're sure your audience knows just is communication, to me.

That said, there is of course a gray zone here.

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by vixen99 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @06:08AM (#33045422)
Nit pick. Fair point in some ways but it depends on your audience. If the latter consists primarily of folk with an extensive vocabulary that enables them to detect the nuance that might be intended by the use of a supposedly unusual word (like obviate) then they won't know what you mean by 'word salad' unless you're using some word inappropriately. Seven letters versus twenty three characters. No competition. If obviate is what you mean then use it. For a general audience however, you're absolutely right.

Occurs to me there's another point in your favor as expressed in Orwell's version of a well-known passage from the Old Testament 'Ecclesiastes' into modern English. He makes the point brilliantly. Aesthetics does come into it!

https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by ISO-morphism on Friday September 30, 2022 @11:19PM (#33043522)
"If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter"
Re:US Government plans to develop AI that can unmask anonymo... by marton78 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:41AM (#33044485)
If I had had more time, you mean.