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Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:29AM (#32996625)
The Russians blew up their own brand-new pipeline, which they spend billions creating (jointly with the Germans) and is one of the few major "hopes" to salvage that relationship, especially as winter dawns.

That's frankly absurd.

Russia almost certainly sabotaged a LNG terminal in Texas a few months ago (industrial cyberattack). This act was almost certainly done by Washington or their proxies. It drives the wedge further between EU and Russia and makes the EU further dependent on Washington. The cui bono is pretty clear.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by throwrqX on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:07PM (#32998929)
I don't understand why people here seem to think Russia is acting rationally. The fact they continue the invasion when losing is clearly irrational. They threaten mass nuclear bombardment of Europe nearly daily. I don't see any long term rationality in Putin's government in the slightest.

There will be no salvaging the relationship between Germany and Russia for a long time unless Putin gets replaced, even during winter. The absolute worst case scenario (the only one I see where Germany could have gone to Russia for gas) where people die from cold in their homes is never going to happen. Only yesterday BloombergNEF published a report saying Europe was ready for a complete cut off from Russian gas from October 1, and that includes commercial uses too which take up a big chunk and would obviously be redirected should there be any threat of people dying of cold.

> Russia almost certainly sabotaged a LNG terminal in Texas a few months ago

What evidence is there for this?

> It drives the wedge further between EU and Russia

On the contrary, should the EU find that the US was behind the explosions it would cause an absolute rift between the US-EU relationship, and in particular with Germany.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:09PM (#32999734)
> I don't understand

Have you genuinely attempted to understand the Russian perspective in all this? Like listened to what Moscow has been saying for the last decade? Have you ever read a single one of Putin's speeches, for example?

Reading Anne Applebaum screeds in The Atlantic is not seeking understanding, by the way.

How can you understand something if you don't attempt to understand it?

> What evidence is there for this?

No smoking gun, just cui bono + timing + no other plausible explanation has been put forth

> On the contrary, should the EU find that the US was behind the explosions it would cause an absolute rift between the US-EU relationship, and in particular with Germany.

If Europe had strong leadership. Even Merkel didn't really stand up to the spying revelations.

The nuclear brinkmanship is textbook deterrence. Whenever Russia escalates, expect nuclear threats to deter a full-blown NATO entry.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by mrighele on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:45PM (#33000194)
I think that Merkel and the other "strong" German leaders are the reason we are at this point (no surprise though, a good amount of them are/were on the Kremlin's payroll).

All the energy related decisions in the past 20 years seems to have been made with the purpose to make Germany dependent on Russia (Nuclear, lack of LPG terminals, etc), and to make sure that countries included in the imperialistic ambitions of Moscow (like Ukraine) could affect influence this relationship (NS1, NS2)

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by yakshaving_jgt on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:40PM (#33000129)
I've listened to plenty of Putin's speeches.

He's a compulsive liar.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:25PM (#33001332)
Can you give 1-3 examples of verifiable lies he's told?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by yakshaving_jgt on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:52PM (#33001590)
1. We are not going to invade Ukraine.

2. We did not invade Ukraine.

3. We are not at war with Ukraine.

It takes a special kind of stupid to take Putin’s words seriously at this point.

You know what, I’m actually disappointed you only asked for three. There’s a mountain of knee-slappers even just from this year.

“We’ve lost nothing” after 50,000 of his soldiers died.

It’s like the guy is a fucking five year old.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by int_19h on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:52PM (#33004054)
They have also said several times that there won't ever be a mobilization, including at least once by Putin personally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WhnE4VQs7c

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @11:42AM (#33009290)
1-3 are predicated on an "official" declaration of war, which obviously hasn't happened yet. USA hasn't technically "invaded" Syria either, even though it is currently occupying parts of it. Russia is framing their military operation in a way consistent with Washington, which hasn't formally declared war on anyone since like 2003.

Do you have any examples that don't require clear technical misinterpretations?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by yakshaving_jgt on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @12:15PM (#33009717)
Lavrov? Is that you?

Alright, you dismiss my first three examples. Care to explain the fourth example I provided?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @01:11PM (#33010432)
The fourth example is just plain bad. I challenge you to find a single wartime leader that hasn't downplayed their losses. You are being deeply disingenuous if you think Putin means literally zero Russian soldiers have died. It's wartime morale management 101. Literally everyone does it, including your favorite world leaders.

What I'm really after is if you have any evidence of Putin (or Lavrov, now that you mention him) lying on the scale of "Saddam is gonna nuke the West" or "NATO will not expand one inch eastward". Or has Putin ever openly boasted about his lying prowess, as fmr Secretary Pompeo and fmr Ambassador McFaul did recently? These would be convincing examples.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by yakshaving_jgt on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @01:41PM (#33010804)
Ah, so my suspicions were correct. You are an apologist for fascism.

Good day sir.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @02:25PM (#33011417)
Your bad faith posting is against HN rules. Please do better.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by yakshaving_jgt on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @05:58PM (#33013810)
5. "The Russian army does not strike at civilian facilities. There is no need for that"

Come on, propagandist. We can do this all day.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Delk on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @06:29PM (#33014068)
If you genuinely think considering Putin's output as lies requires "clear technical misinterpretations", I'm not sure any argument is going to mean much.

However, taking just from his recent speech announcing the mobilization (I don't speak Russian and am relying on a translation from the Kremlin's transcript, but at least two independent translations are similar enough):

- Repeated claims that the purpose of the "special military operation" is to liberate Donbas from the "neo-Nazi regime" holding power in Ukraine

The Ukrainian government is not neo-Nazi. Volodymyr Zelenskyy is Jewish. (It might be common rhetoric in Russia since the Soviet Union and WWII days to claim opponents as "Nazis", but that's not what the word means to anybody else.) Repeatedly claiming that a country is being ruled by neo-Nazis with no reason or evidence, especially when there's reason not to believe that, is a lie. The claim of Ukraine being ruled by neo-Nazis is repeated enough in just that single speech that this claim alone would more than suffice.

- Claims of genocide in eastern Ukraine, and of a government in Ukraine being the result of a coup

There has been no evidence of a genocide (which is a rather strong term and claim to make in the first place), and there has been no coup. There have, of course, been governments unfavourable to and disliked by the current Russian regime. But that doesn't make their election a coup.

- Reference to the "Kyiv occupation regime"

An occupation regime is one that's occupying a country other than their own, or acting as a puppet of an occupying country, or possibly (at a stretch) a military regime holding power over their own country with force against the will of the people's majority. An elected government in their own country is none of these. Even if some parts of a population in a part of a country would prefer a differently aligned government, that doesn't make the government an occupation regime.

- The claim that the "Kyiv regime" announced a desire for obtaining nuclear weapons

An individual member of the parliament in Ukraine apparently expressed regret that Ukraine had given up Soviet-era nuclear armaments, or that (in his view) Ukraine might need to pursue them again. An individual member of a parliament (who AFAIK was not part of the government) expressing a view does not by any stretch mean the same as a government announcing that view. The difference is obvious to anybody who understands how democracy works.

I don't know how common it is in Ukraine nowadays to wish the country had nuclear weapons, although I wouldn't be surprised if that had increased as a result of Russian aggression and war. Either way, claiming a government has announced something when they haven't said anything to that effect is a lie.

--

There also lots of other claims in the speech, intended to gain the support of its audience, that amount to dishonesty or lying regardless of technical nitpicking. I'm not going to list them all here, as there are too many and there's no point, but an example would be the claim that western governments have resorted to "nuclear blackmail". Putin refers to "statements made by some high-ranking representatives of the leading NATO countries on the possibility and admissibility of using [nuclear weapons] against Russia". While it's hard to track down every statement made by every representative of a NATO country and prove that none of them ever said anything in that direction, the essence of claiming that western governments or countries are making nuclear threats against Russia is blatantly and obviously false.

Watching things from Europe, the only references to nuclear threat I have seen are concerns that Putin's regime is making them, even if vaguely, and concerns of the safety of nuclear power plants amidst the war. Absolutely zero governments are making any suggestions towards threatening Russia with anything nuclear. Nobody's also crazy or stupid enough to do so, and if an individual representative or politician actually did that, it would obviously get condemned immediately, because none of those governments would be crazy or stupid enough not to condemn it.

There are lots of statements and claims like that in the mobilization speech alone. And all of this is just from a single speech. Every speech Putin has given this year that I've seen or read about has been filled with untruths of varying degrees.

Many of his claims are either somewhat vague or otherwise difficult to absolutely verify as lies with mathematical precision. Some of them might not be lies from Putin's perspective. For example, he might well feel that his conservative regime is being threatened by a liberal opposition encouraged by western influence or western countries. The claims that Russia (as he understands it) is being threatened by the west may be true from his perspective.

However, many of the claims he makes in support of that view or to justify the war are simply dishonest, such as the allusions to nuclear threat from the west. There's no way those could be considered anything but either delusions or lies.

Generally, so many of Putin's claims are some kind of a combination of simply not true, baseless, and obviously motivated, that the whole definitely amounts to him lying or twisting the truth whenever it suits his purposes.

What is it that makes him seem more truthful to you?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by eshch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:08PM (#33002795)
Well, seems you don't give yourself a chance that your idea of Putin might be a mistake. Not a very comfortable position to think rationally.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by yakshaving_jgt on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @02:30AM (#33004849)
I live in Odessa, Ukraine, and I have had to go to shelter from missile strikes and suicide drone attacks several times in just the past few days.

I have also lived in Russia. It can be awkward when the Ukrainians see my old Russian visa in my passport when I cross the border.

Where do you live? Ukraine? Russia? How close are you to this issue personally? Got any skin in the game? How many blatant lies are you going to ignore so your Nazi-apologist worldview isn’t compromised?

How would you like to see this notification near enough every day, sometimes several times a day?

В ОДЕССЕ И ОБЛАСТИ ОБЪЯВЛЕНА ВОЗДУШНАЯ ТРЕВОГА, ВСЕ В УКРЫТИЕ

ЧИТАТЕЛИ СООБЩАЮТ, О ВЗРЫВАХ В ОДЕССЕ И ПРИГОРОДЕ. Уточняем информацию

ПРЕДВАРИТЕЛЬНО ЕСТЬ СБИТИЕ 2-х РАКЕТ

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by int_19h on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:50PM (#33004040)
I'm Russian (both ethnically and citizenship).

The Russian perspective is basically, "we had an awesome empire, now we want it back". All the rhetoric about teh evil NATO etc is just dressing that up.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by DSingularity on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @12:16AM (#33004194)
Is that so?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by int_19h on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @12:49AM (#33004342)
Sure. It's quite obvious, too: how many Russians has NATO killed?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @09:21PM (#33003242)
I genuinely attempted to understand Russia’s perspective and tended to sympathize with it until February of this year. But the current war doesn’t fit into that understanding at all and I don’t know how to begin to reconcile it. Why spend months insisting you’re not going to invade, then invade while publicly insisting you’re not invading, then call up a partial general mobilization without identifying any goals for your war that you insist isn’t a war? Maybe there’s a master plan that has to be secret and continually lied about, but if that’s so then listening to more Putin speeches won’t help me understand him anyway.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by petre on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:58PM (#33004092)
Russia's perspective is that NATO (the US) has put military installations in former Soviet satellites (Poland and Romania) and that they're being pushed into a corner as NATO expands to the East. In fact those installations are purely defensive and Russia has become less relevant as a superpower largely because of corruption. This is even more obvious now as they have failed to properly execute a war against their neighbour. Putin and the Russians who support the war are frustrated because they've lost the former glory of the USSR and that Russia is becoming a second rate player in geopolitics. That's why he started this war. He wants the USSR restored. What he will get instead is even more dissent and separatist republics.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by christkv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:07PM (#32999701)
Exaggerated threats is standard soviet negotiation and the current leadership of Russia are creatures of that culture of negotiation.

Blowing up their own gas line makes no sense as it destroys any possible leverage. The only ones that have anything to gain is the US or other associated allies.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by migro23 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:52PM (#33000950)
The pipelines represented zero leverage at this point. No gas was being supplied by them and it would be politically untenable for any European country to buy it using these pipelines while Putin is still in charge. So as far as Putin was concerned (not Russia) these pipelines have zero value.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by bulbosaur123 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:02PM (#33000392)
Putin is employing Madman theory and you are falling for it.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by MomoXenosaga on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:13PM (#32999777)
Dictatorships, especially ones run by a single guy, are known to act irrationally and make fatal miscalculations. The list is endless.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by FiberBundle on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:00PM (#32997132)
It's really not that absurd. The fact that it looks entirely irrational for Russia to do this is exactly why they might have done it. Their intent is to cause division in the West. They could potentially hope for EU countries to blame the US or Ukraine for this. If you read Twitter trends you already see an army of Russian bots pushing the theory that the US has done this.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:08PM (#32997232)
> The fact that it looks entirely irrational for Russia to do this is exactly why they might have done it.

Any analysis predicated on "the enemy is perfectly irrational and will not act according their interests" is not analysis. It's untethered from reality, which is convenient, because you can support any conclusion you desire.

Robert McNamara's #1 life lesson was "empathize with your enemy" (he dealt with the Cuban Missile Crisis). Sun Tzu said "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." This timeless wisdom has basis in reality.

Unfortunately, realism in Washington has been replaced with insane, petulant ideologues like Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland" and Michael "Of course we lied" McFaul.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by throwrqX on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:10PM (#32998958)
People like Michael McFaul is exactly why the invasion happened in the first place because the Obama admin was weak on Russia after the 2014 invasion. They are the opposite of ideologues.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:19PM (#32999839)
The Obama-Biden admins definitely induced the current crisis over Ukraine, but it certainly wasn't because they were too permissive.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by AzzieElbab on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:25PM (#32999920)
It is actually bipartisan idiocy. Goes beyond Obama/Biden perceived weakness and weird foreign policies. Don’t forget Bush ambassador to Russia - current CIA director who personally managed to convince Putin that entire former USSR is solely RF sphere of interest/influence
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by MomoXenosaga on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:31PM (#33002932)
Putin was not content with having his fiefdom and threatened Western security interests by blowing up the post WW2 global order. He stepped out of line and now Russia suffers for it. That's the realism. China knows it and that's why they aren't backing him. This isn't about ideology, democracy or human rights. This is warlord invoking the wrath of imperial gunboats.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by NaturalPhallacy on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:53PM (#33001607)
>It's really not that absurd. The fact that it looks entirely irrational for Russia to do this is exactly why they might have done it.

Yeah, let's just forget all about Occam's' razor.

>If you read Twitter trends you already see an army of Russian bots pushing the theory that the US has done this.

Because it makes sense? US social media is 100% pro-Ukrainian propaganda and any slight dissent, criticisms or questioning is met seemingly instantly from multiple accounts alleging Russian propaganda. Meanwhile the biggest impact on American social media is American propaganda. Including about our alleged ally, Ukraine. And like Israel, they seem to be more trouble than they're worth as far as the interests of the average American citizen are concerned.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by throwawaymaths on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:41PM (#33000831)
It's not just Russian bots, unless I've been deepfaked, Biden announced he would do this if Russia invaded Ukraine prior to the Feb invasion.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by ondra on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @07:35PM (#33002539)
Biden most certainly did not announce he would do _this_.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by throwawaymaths on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @01:19AM (#33004503)
Ok, in the conference he specifically calls out Nord stream two but there is definitely a glint in his demeanor/timing that says "we can destroy it" when the journo exasperatedly asks "but how will you do that [put an end to NS2]"

https://mobile.twitter.com/ODELL/status/1574758411392131078?...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Paradigma11 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:17PM (#33001852)
Pretty sure the repair can be done before there is any chance the sanctions would be lifted. So Russia doesnt really lose anything important but is able to sow discord, mistrust and generally raise the fear level about gas supply.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:30PM (#33001967)
That's possible, albeit a very expensive prank with no guaranteed upside. Why not just keep the valve shut and pretend you have no interest in opening it?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Paradigma11 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:40PM (#33002065)
Because Russia needs to do "something" now to hopefully reduce arms and financial support for Ukraine and this is "something".
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by NeverFade on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:14PM (#32999015)
> The Russians blew up their own brand-new pipeline, which they spend billions creating (jointly with the Germans) and is one of the few major "hopes" to salvage that relationship, especially as winter dawns.

There is no "salvaging the relationship" for the current regime. No gas will flow in these pipelines while Putin is in power, and the EU has already prepared alternatives:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-27/europe-is...

Thus these pipelines are worthless to the current regime, except as means to cause damage to the hated Europeans who are enforcing sanctions against them and arming Ukraine against their invasion.

You may argue that the relationship might be salvaged with the next regime, but Putin doesn't care. He will be dead or imprisoned for life whenever such next regime takes power.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by greedo on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:14PM (#33002833)
I remember Tiananmen Square. People were horrified at the barbaric reaction of the PRC to peaceful protests. Thirty plus years later, they are one of the world's largest trading partners. Despite their barbaric treatment of the Uighars. So I don't believe that countries won't salvage their "relationship" with Russia given half a chance.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:22PM (#32999876)
The hope in Moscow is that the people of Germany, etc will rise up and democratically remove the Washington proxies (Grünen) from their governments. Then the relationship may be renewed.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by gizajob on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:41PM (#33000137)
Ha. The vodka in Moscow must be pretty strong this year then.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by mopsi on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @04:25AM (#33005556)
The German Greens have historically been very openly hostile towards the US and NATO. To call them Washington proxies is just plain stupid.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by formerly_proven on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:34AM (#32996707)
> That's frankly absurd.

The notion that NS2 would enter operation is absurd. NS2 has been dead in the water for months, and the prospect of entering service have been dubious for some time before the Russians invaded Ukraine.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:37AM (#32996769)
Washington had a very clear policy of never letting NS2 enter production (remember that ominous Biden quip before the war? [1]), which, by the way, is the opposite of absurd: Germany is a major consumer of natural gas and Russia is a major nearby supplier. NS2 is natural in a world without geopolitical drama.

"NS2 shouldn't exist" is a narrative manufactured in Washington (and delivered to Germany by Baerbock), that goes against basic economics and the interests of both Germans and Russians.

[1] - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/biden-says-nord-stream-2-won...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by jcranmer on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:50AM (#32996969)
> NS2 is natural in a world without geopolitical drama.

As I understand it, most of the gas that would be delivered via NS2 would be the gas that wouldn't be delivered through Belarus/Ukraine (depriving them of transit revenue and providing more options for Russia to employ gas politics on its western flank). It rather seems to me that, far from being natural in a world without geopolitical drama, much of its purpose is actually to enable geopolitical drama.

And, of course, the main thrust of the argumentation against NS2 was that it was causing Germany to pursue an economic dependency on Russia that was unwise, given Russia's already-demonstrated penchant for using that economic dependency as a lever in global affairs. NS2 died when Russia's invasion of Ukraine demonstrated the lack of wisdom in pursuing economic dependency on Russia (compounded by Russia withholding gas flows to make Europe came back begging to Mother Russia).

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by eshch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:47PM (#33003036)
>depriving them of transit revenue

So should Russia be obliged to pay for transit and provide gas to Ukraine? Why wouldn't Ukraine pursue gas supplies from other sources? It had at least 8 years for that, but all the time was spent on opposing NS2.

"that was unwise" is a simplification, not a proper explanation. Russia is a cheap resource supplier, so it was beneficial for European countries to leverage it for their economy to be more competitive with US at least.

Saudi Arabia has its own bunch of issues with democracy (there is none, imagine), human rights (surprise), a war with neighbouring Yemen (sounds familiar?), but for some magical reason no one cares and alienates Saudi Arabia, and everyone is very forgetful and blind about their issues and doesn't interfere.

People's thoughts are literally tunnelled.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @09:39PM (#33003333)
The key difference is that Saudi Arabia has not acquired new territory for itself. In the post-colonial era, there are very strong norms against countries annexing parts of each other, with Russia's actions in Ukraine being pretty much the first to happen since the 60s. If the Saudis had initiated the war in Yemen by pointing to some old border dispute and directly annexing the port of Aden, people would be much more angry with them.

For comparison, consider Iraq's attempt to annex Kuwait in the 90s. The world absolutely considered it a five-alarm fire, with the West immediately planning for war and even China and the Soviet Union authorizing a retaliatory blockade. Most people genuinely and strongly feel that the return of territorial conquest as a common practice would be a disaster for the world.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:55AM (#32997052)
NS1 was in operation years before even the 2014 events in Ukraine.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by jcranmer on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:01PM (#32997154)
Notice how I referred to NS2 and not NS1.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:17PM (#32997418)
They use the same route. Your assertion that NS2 is somehow out-of-place and can only be explained by Russian "gas politics" is contradicted by the precedent set by NS1.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by mixedbit on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:10PM (#33000502)
Where is the contradiction? NS1 has limited capacity that was not sufficient to allow Russia to bypass Ukrainian gas pipelines, NS2 would increases the capacity of this route.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by epakai on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @04:56AM (#33005860)
It was Washington that waived sanctions in 2021 to allow NS2. It is only on Russian mobilization that the policy changed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57180674

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by cameldrv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:44PM (#32998590)
It's not absurd if NS1 were damaged. Even if Germany didn't want the extra capacity that NS2 brings, it's an obvious backup if NS1 were to fail. Anyone wanting to cut off the option of Russia supplying gas to Germany this winter would have to hit both.