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Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by wanderingmind on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:22AM (#32851517)
This is the beauty of FOSS. It might be rough at the edges but you can always have access to it and not have to worry about losing your daily driver (talking to you Figma). Every organization needs to start thinking about this and invest in good FOSS tools for any recent technology to avoid business continuity risk.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by bolt7469 on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:49AM (#32851914)
rough at the edges

That part is the deal-breaker for many people who actually use these tools for work. It's difficult to daily drive an objectively worse software, when your pay depends on producing value with it.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by dmantis on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:53AM (#32851987)
If you are a company and not an individual, nobody prohibits you to pay bounties to maintainers to focus on your needs instead of paying some try-to-hook-you-up-with-subscriptions company.

Moreover, lots of OSS contributors are from China, Russia, India, Ukraine, etc - so a company may spend even less paying them for particular commits than buying software from bay area company.

It's more about management mindset rather than insolvable problem.

upd: And everybody wins - more quality OSS code, help developers in poor countries, less money to shitty companies like Adobe.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by lowercased on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:57AM (#32852046)
> nobody prohibits you to pay bounties to maintainers to focus on your needs

company or individual, that's true. but there's still big opportunity costs and time factors. Pay someone $1000 now to perhaps get some polish/bugfixes in a release 2 months from now... and do what in the meantime? Deal with 15% more time spent in sub-par-for-my-needs software?

You can, but it's not a slam dunk decision, and just because you paid that money, you may still not get things as you want (or when you want).

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by troyvit on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:39PM (#32856537)
I don't think I've ever successfully gotten a SaaS or other paid product to fix a bug for me. I mean sure I've paid a lot to upgrade _hoping_ that an upgrade comes with bug fixes, but that usually doesn't pan out either. On the other hand I've seen great responsiveness on open source projects.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by mixmastamyk on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:03PM (#32854079)
In one year you’ll be one year older. Won’t you wish you’d invested in yourself, org, and community?

It’s a marshmallow test for adults.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by KronisLV on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:41PM (#32854654)
> Won’t you wish you’d invested in yourself, org, and community?

Many might prefer to have shipped features/products in a timely manner instead and how their performance reviews would look, as opposed to some notion of community.

The situations where you can say: "I'm blocked and am waiting on the library/tool developer to have a look at my GitHub issue, so no new release will be shipped until then," are probably not plentiful. Situations where the person in question can contribute a solution of their own are also not as plentiful as we might like. Situations where the person in question is capable of either solving the problem just for themselves (with a custom build of the tool/library) are also not as plentiful as one might hope, due to possibly different skillsets.

Making the functionality someone else's problem behind a contract of some sort feels like a decent choice in an enterprise setting, which is why you see many purchase something like RHEL licenses because of the support, or why many prefer to overpay for cloud services instead of running everything on prem, or even use paid tools that are "standard" within the niche of the industry that they work in.

For many, the circumstances in which they'll adopt FOSS primarily centers around someone else already having done the majority of the work and the solution being good enough: something like MySQL/MariaDB/PostgreSQL in the database space and something like Angular/Vue/React in the front end space, or any number of libraries/frameworks for back end development, tools like Visual Studio Code or Git, OSes like GNU/Linux or other Linux distros and so on.

One might also argue that a lot of the successful FOSS projects out there actually have corporate backing, but perhaps that's besides the point.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by mixmastamyk on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:56PM (#32855919)
Those folks can contribute a few dollars a month.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by KronisLV on Thursday September 15, 2022 @03:24PM (#32857258)
Agreed!

But this point from the comment shouldn't be overlooked:

> You can, but it's not a slam dunk decision, and just because you paid that money, you may still not get things as you want (or when you want).

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by mixmastamyk on Thursday September 15, 2022 @05:23PM (#32858633)
True with proprietary software as well. Some even charge money and sell you to others via advertising surveillance at the same time.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by desindol on Thursday September 15, 2022 @03:34PM (#32857386)
I donated like 4K early into GIMP 15 years later it’s still an unusable mess in a professional environment.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by mixmastamyk on Thursday September 15, 2022 @05:04PM (#32858436)
I use it every day to edit my photos, and create/edit images, things it does well. Thank you.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by newsclues on Thursday September 15, 2022 @10:05AM (#32852211)
Hire devs and use OSS as a base to create the tools you need!
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by moonchrome on Thursday September 15, 2022 @10:14AM (#32852355)
Hire dairy farmers to get the milk for your coffee - absolute insight into how it's produced. Also they got to raise cows from calves so no milk in the office for a while. But once you get it you can be sure it's organic !

That's not even going into the dev market situation right now ...

I mean seriously have you people ever been near a situation where these kind of decisions are made ?

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by newsclues on Friday September 16, 2022 @08:41PM (#32873761)
What competitive advantage do you get from having dairy farmers on staff?

Compared to the competitive advantage of having a software developer on staff?

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by moonchrome on Sunday September 18, 2022 @09:58AM (#32887605)
Do you actually do professional software development ? Even huge tech companies fail development projects spectacularly, non-tech companies trying to develop business critical software when superior alternative is available at reasonable prices ? You'd have a self inflicted competitive disadvantage. With first you might have a recruiting gimmick.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by asgraham on Thursday September 15, 2022 @10:26AM (#32852555)
Sure, this is ideal given unlimited time and money, but hiring dedicated devs for tooling is going to be expensive. And once they fix "the problem," they're still on payroll. Yay they'll keep fixing problems and improving the software, but it's basically the most expensive software subscription model imaginable.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by mixmastamyk on Thursday September 15, 2022 @11:57AM (#32853989)
Good thing they invented contracting… several hundred years ago?
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by bolt7469 on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:45PM (#32855769)
Contracting requires the devs to get up to speed on the software and your company needs. On the other hand, a private company selling commercial software has a comparative advantage in already knowing the codebase and user needs.

10 companies each contracting 1 dev for an open-source project is a less-efficient allocation of resources than 1 company hiring 10 devs for their commercial software project.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by mixmastamyk on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:58PM (#32855940)
Lost in the noise when the community is large enough.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by bolt7469 on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:17PM (#32856200)
I'd appreciate it if you could provide some evidence for your claim that comparative advantage is "lost in the noise."

Efficient allocation of scarce resources is best achieved with comparative advantages. A commercial software team has shared context, management, and knowledge that cannot be as efficiently achieved by a decentralized community of contributors. So the commercial team can produce the same software at a cheaper cost. This is a good thing for the economy.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by mixmastamyk on Thursday September 15, 2022 @05:06PM (#32858453)
Design tools are a multi-billion dollar market in just the US, and useful worldwide. Potential resources are not even a bit scarce.

Figma already did the hard work of prod/tech design and fixing browsers, meaning followers will have a much easier path. https://madebyevan.com/figma/building-a-professional-design-...

The same short-term thinking has been espoused at the dawn of every innovation. Thankfully some folks don’t listen.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by ChadNauseam on Thursday September 15, 2022 @10:47AM (#32852853)
Economics prohibits it. Consider a feature that will cost 1 month of developer time, let’s put that at $10k. 20 companies using the product want that feature, and each would be willing to pay $1k for it. No problem, right? The community would be willing to pay $20k total, and the feature would only cost $10k to implement, so why can’t it get done?

It can’t get done because every company wants to let some other sucker pay for the feature, and then free-ride after it’s implemented. No individual company would pay the $10k, because the feature is only worth $1k to them, even though it’s worth $20k to society.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by oever on Thursday September 15, 2022 @06:38PM (#32859349)
So how did Penpot come into existence? Because some 'sucker' paid for it?

Kaleidos, the creators of Penpot, built a tool that they need and invested to make it open. And they get recognition for it which builds their brand and gets them more customers and employees.

Paying for feature X and having that advertised in the ChangeLog and on the sponsors page is a sound business decision.

Soon enough, businesses pay fees to Adobe only to have their data taken hostage in the cloud will be known as suckers.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by cycomanic on Thursday September 15, 2022 @01:04PM (#32855104)
But on the other hand a lot of companies are quite happy to pay a subscription of 1000k a year (which increases if the company grows) to get the same features. Let's be real purchasing decisions are often not based primarily on economics otherwise companies wouldn't have large marketing and sales departments which throw huge parties at trade shows.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by bolt7469 on Thursday September 15, 2022 @02:07PM (#32856068)
In the long run, a company that wastes money on purchases will be beaten in the market by a company that isn't so wasteful. Marketing and sales is not wasteful, but actually creates profit.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by TuringTest on Thursday September 15, 2022 @04:21PM (#32857963)
I don't believe either of those are true. As it happens, the largest companies capture so much of the market that they can afford being inefficient, and they still have the power to push the competition into a corner.

There are small-margin markets where this doesn't happen, bit then those markets don't have huge companies either.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by andsoitis on Thursday September 15, 2022 @10:35AM (#32852696)
Project managing all the tools that we use to get our job done seems very distracting.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by rglullis on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:24PM (#32854365)
These people learn to hedge:

- Take X% of what they pay to Figma/Adobe and donate to FOSS alternatives.

- Every year, go through an exercise to look for missing features on the open source tool that still keeps you dependent on the proprietary one. Take the results from the feedback and give to the developers.

- (If you are a big company) use the results of this exercise to try to negotiate down on the price of the proprietary system you depend on. If you manage to get a discount, take it and double down on the support of the free alternative.

- Repeat until either you no longer need the proprietary solution or the open source alternative surpasses the closed one in capabilities and market share.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by capableweb on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:54AM (#32851998)
Keep in mind that Figma was initially started in 2012, first public release in ~2016, while Penpot just got started in 2018. Figma has a bunch of years headstart on Penpot. Give them some years and I'm sure Penpot can achieve at least as much as Figma, if not more, because of the FOSS nature of the product.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by Cthulhu_ on Thursday September 15, 2022 @10:15AM (#32852376)
I feel like that is mainly in the consumer application space, things that have a user interface; everyone's favorite developer tooling, languages, CLI apps, etc are mostly open source.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by greyhair on Thursday September 15, 2022 @11:36AM (#32853657)
The analogy for me has always been Snap-On hand tools vs Craftsman. If you are making a living twisting wrenches eight hours a day, six days a week, the wrench you use really does matter.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by miragecraft on Friday September 16, 2022 @12:45AM (#32862193)
If I'm running a company (ha!) and dependent on Figma I'd still be paying for Figma while at the same time sending some funds over to Penpot as an insurance policy.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by bearmode on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:51AM (#32851946)
>It might be rough at the edges

Often it's not just "rough around the edges", but fully missing features that are necessary (or STRONGLY desired) for a regular professional's workflow

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by acomjean on Thursday September 15, 2022 @11:54AM (#32853921)
In biology almost nobody pays for software. A lot of it is really rough around the edges (I have to install and try to run some of it as part of my job).

It’s kinda interesting, most development is by grants and such, they don’t offer much in the way of support funding. A lot of development is fooling around taking output from a and making it work for b.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by that_guy_iain on Thursday September 15, 2022 @12:40PM (#32854635)
> Every organization needs to start thinking about this and invest in good FOSS tools for any recent technology to avoid business continuity risk.

As far as a business is concerned, Figma is still available. There is no business continuity risk.

I personally, would say open source provides a much larger business continuity risk. There are many open source projects that are basically dead. They're widely used and quite crucial but development and support has basically stopped the maintainer has moved on with their lifes and have other things they want to do.

A good example would be the Gorilla libraries in Go, it is still being maintained but the fact the maintainer has been looking for such a long time for someone else to take over because they don't have the time really means the library is just kinda existing.

There is a popular User library for the Symfony framework in PHP, it literally says in the docs that people are expected to move off of it because they won't maintain it and lists a bunch of reasons why. How many teams using that library would even know that?

One of the biggest complaints I've seen open soure maintainers complain about is people asking if their project is dead or not. As far as the maintainer is concerned it's maintained, when they have time. But it looks to the world that it is dead.

Just because you can get the source code and use it at any time because the license allows it doesn't mean you're able to depend on it. In fact, since you're often paying no one for it and most often not even said thanks to anyone (myself included). You're entitled to nothing, no support, no note that they won't be maintaining it, etc.

It annoys me when people think that FOSS means it's something you can depend on, when it literally comes with a license that makes sure you understand there is no warranty. That's how much you can depend on it. The person giving it to you says use at your own risk.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by infamia on Thursday September 15, 2022 @03:17PM (#32857153)
> I personally, would say open source provides a much larger business continuity risk.

I feel the opposite, open source gives people and companies options and the ability to soldier on if someone loses interest in a technology. This site is littered with notices from companies that they intend to discontinue some paid product or service suddenly with very little notice. If a group of people or companies really care about an open source technology, it's easy enough for them to ensure the continued maintenance of something they're getting for free. Also, if you care deeply about a technology, chances are others do as well and those projects will continue well past what a commercial vendor would maintain.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by that_guy_iain on Friday September 16, 2022 @03:33AM (#32863232)
You know why the site isn't littered with open source projects announcing they're getting abandoned? Because majority of the time the maintainers don't even care enough to announce it.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by TuringTest on Thursday September 15, 2022 @04:32PM (#32858064)
> They're widely used and quite crucial but development and support has basically stopped the maintainer has moved on with their lifes and have other things they want to do.

So, you've never had a commercial proprietary library your core product depends upon, being obsoleted and ceased support, without a license nor access to the code to keep maintaining it in-house? Because it happens, and I have.

And it's not just because the library was commercially inefficient, but because it got bought by a competing large corporation, who wanted to replace it in the market with their own solution, and wouldn't bother to support the library for its old users.

When this happens, at least the open source license allows you to keep supporting your use case by yourself, instead of being forced into the new solution being pushed by the vendor.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by that_guy_iain on Friday September 16, 2022 @03:32AM (#32863219)
So the library got replaced with a new version? Happens in open source and often with less notice than with commerical products. And the idea of supporting the use case by yourself gets shot down. Also, you'll find money talks in these scenarios and you can pay for more support it just costs so much no one wants to do it.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by TuringTest on Friday September 16, 2022 @02:03PM (#32869813)
> So the library got replaced with a new version?

No, the new library promoted by the vendor was utterly incompatible with our system, being based on totally different assumptions. So the library got replaced by an open-source library that did the same as the original and had a permissive license, which allowed my company to build a wrapper around it at an affordable cost.

Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by jbaczuk on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:35AM (#32851708)
FOSS has risks too.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by type0 on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:46AM (#32851873)
Yes, it can even cause you to drop out of college https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32799090
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by jbaczuk on Friday September 16, 2022 @07:46PM (#32873470)
lol
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by Existenceblinks on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:53AM (#32851988)
Yeah I feel sick every time people pride FOSS/OSS only from consumers' perspective. While there's just a few way to financially sustain projects.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by Existenceblinks on Thursday September 15, 2022 @08:49PM (#32860557)
Congratulation downvoters you've successfully used free software on the back of people for a long time and don't want changes.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by marcodiego on Thursday September 15, 2022 @09:59AM (#32852072)
Specially the risk of becoming a much better alternative.
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by jbaczuk on Friday September 16, 2022 @07:46PM (#32873467)
until users get too dependent on it and the maintainers stop maintaining it... or the maintainer goes rogue... or there is a vulnerability/bug introduced by someone... and you can't easily switch to another platform
Re:Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform by NayamAmarshe on Thursday September 15, 2022 @11:39AM (#32853703)
Yeah, risk for the proprietary competition.