News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by forinti on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:01AM (#32777377)
What was the motivation to switch to SAP? Was the in-house solution lacking?
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by lqet on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:08AM (#32777425)
AFAIK, they introduced SAP elsewhere in the company, and it became difficult/too expensive to manage the communication between the old system and the SAP system. I can imagine too well how the conversation between the SAP people and the company went because I also took part in similar conversations with clients in a previous job a long time ago: client asks you if software X can do thing Y. Both you and the person representing the client have only superficial domain expertise on Y. "Oh, you mean enter data into a form? Of course software X can do that, it was designed exactly for that purpose!"

The complexity of the task is eventually discovered in production.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by ornornor on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:46AM (#32777656)
> The complexity of the task is eventually discovered in production.

I’m amazed that this is what happens every. Single. Time. And yet we plow ahead with this kind of projects like we have no idea it’s the usual outcome.

A couple years and millions over budget later, we rediscover this axiom. I really don’t get it. And try to warn about this, you’re labeled as not a team player or whatever and paint crosshairs on your back for the next round of layoffs. It’s just soul sucking.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by magicalhippo on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:13AM (#32777799)
> I’m amazed that this is what happens every. Single. Time.

The details about the day-to-day operations disappear quickly as you move up the hierarchy.

My boss recently had a meeting with a large customer of us, we deliver a product used heavily by one of their departments. Here's roughly how that went down:

My boss: "Well, what about when you do orders of type X?"

Manager: "Oh we don't do those"

My boss: "Really?"

My boss brings up the order list and filters on type X, finds at least one entered each day by user ABC

Manager: "Oh... so that's what she does"

So that information was lost in just one level.

This is why we try our best to get the actual users involved when discussing requirements with a customer. I don't think I've ever experienced a project where at least one of the users haven't brought up some edge case the manager wasn't aware of or had completely forgotten.

On the flip side, the projects where the users are left out of it until it goes live never goes well. We'll get it fixed eventually, but there's always pain for far longer than necessary.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by ornornor on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:20AM (#32777851)
At least we’re paid decent amounts of money to crash the bus into the wall…
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by q-big on Friday September 09, 2022 @08:54AM (#32778543)
Isn't this story rather a strong sign that many managers are simply incompetent? I mean: how can you seriously manage things if you don't even know what kind of tasks you actually manage?
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by greedo on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:22AM (#32778883)
At a certain level, managers have to delegate broadly. I think this is best illustrated by the US Army. In an ideal situation, the commander general guidance about his intent. Then his subordinates plan how to accomplish it. I wouldn't expect a Colonel to remember how to fire a mortar properly, and it's the same in IT. My manager expects a well run, secure and efficient datacenter. He expects his SMEs to take care of the details and bring issues to his attention if they exceed the ability of the SMEs to resolve.
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by marcosdumay on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:40AM (#32779827)
If you are delegating broadly, you don't get to mandate the important decisions.

Trying to do those two is a clear signal of incompetence.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by greedo on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:55PM (#32785864)
Eisenhower was in charge of D-Day, arguably one of the most complex human endeavors. He made the majority of the decisions surrounding it, of course influenced by outside factors (De Gaulle, Churchill). He chose Normandy, he decided which units would go where, who would lead the campaign on the ground. Incredibly important decisions, yet he left the tactical decisions to those on the ground. Delegating broadly, as a good commander should.

General Marshall, Eisenhower's superior also delegated broadly, while making key decisions as to the timing of the invasion, which units would be involved, and making sure all the disparate organizations involved were used to the best effect. Again, delegating broadly, as a good commander should.

This goes on and on up to Roosevelt himself, the Commander in Chief at the time. Does he know jack about the tide tables on Omaha beach? The range of a German 105mm howitzer? Of course not. Yet he clearly mandated the important decisions.

All three of these leaders were clearly EXTREMELY competent.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by calvinmorrison on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:00AM (#32778623)
It's human nature. I do this rote task so frequently that I don't know the steps.

Most of my work right now is trying to eke information out of customers about their ERP system so we can get it connected via EDI or to their Ecommerce system (shopify whatever).

So we go live, with a whole process revolving how payments are accepted - and then within an hour there's a problem. Nobody mentioned that certain customers have a different payment workflow!

Back to the drawing board, except we're already live.

This happens again and again.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by sph on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:58AM (#32778059)
The guy making a deal with SAP and their revolutionary solution is a few steps removed from the poor technician/engineer that is aware of how many corner cases the business runs on. This is why every company with at least 2 levels of hierarchy is doomed to repeat this costly mistake.

This is what big corp suppliers like IBM, Oracle or SAP thrive on. CEOs and executives not actually knowing the intricacies of their company, and underestimating the risk of creating a very expensive second system effect.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by calvinmorrison on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:03AM (#32778658)
I guarantee the CTO has a much more realistic view of these projects and understands how hard it is to deliver these things successfully than the average engineer. There's a metric ton of complexity and their jobs depends much more on their ability to deliver the project at a whole without knowing all the details.

The fact is the higher you go the concerns separate. I think the army motto was "go 2 levels up". You're a grunt, you need to know what your platoon and your company are up too and what the goals are so that if you can't follow the plan directly, you can still hit the objective. This is good because no plan army or business, survives reality without changing.

In the same way, you can only go so many levels down.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by lotsofpulp on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:03AM (#32777748)
On an individual decision making scale, there are no repercussions for the bad outcome. The people who decide on plowing ahead get another bullet point on resume for “accomplishing” something, since the outcome is impossible for an outside entity to verify, but doing “something” is verifiable.
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by crispyambulance on Friday September 09, 2022 @08:11AM (#32778170)
If it was like typical ERP/MRP rollouts...

The short answer is that a sales guy in a nice suit took some execs out for steaks and more than a couple cocktails.

The long answer is that management, these days, is trained to outsource everything while still being clueless about what the people they're replacing actually do.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by ssdspoimdsjvv on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:31AM (#32777556)
In-house tooling requires a dedicated team, not just developers but also analysts, testers, etc. Often a company inside the company.

If the software needs to change due to industry changes or regulations or something like that, it will probably be a lot more expensive to implement it yourself compared to using an off-the-shelf tool developed by a company who's sole purpose it is to respond to those kind of changes.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by modo_mario on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:11AM (#32778757)
>it will probably be a lot more expensive to implement it yourself compared to using an off-the-shelf tool developed by a company who's sole purpose it is to respond to those kind of changes.

If your company is small or at least in a field with lots of competition sure. I work in a >100person company that encounters loads of regulatory changes due to food safety and lots of international trade and 2 people developing is good enough. The part doing the accounting and such is largely outsourced to an ERP but is honestly simpler yet just as costly if not more.

What's more things go wrong. That's a given and the absolute best way to deal with it is with someone as close to the processes as possible. you don't want to be calling vendors that are generally absent to see in which part the software lies. Even for industrial equipment that is a lot more single process it is kind of accepted that we people on the ground need to know a good bunch to troubleshoot ourselves rather than paying someone to come over. After all if we wait for that we get a bottleneck that has dozens of people twiddling their thumbs.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by PeterStuer on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:43AM (#32777985)
The idea that the SAP solution will be "off the shelf" is just not true. You will need as many of those roles, probably many more, to keep the SAP based solution running.
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by math-dev on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:03AM (#32777396)
Working in a large corp, I find IT consultants from the outside overpromise and underdeliver on projects

It’s infuriating as anybody below senior management can see right through it

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by sumedh on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:04AM (#32778671)
> anybody below senior management

This happens because the people working below senior management are usually not slick talkers and many people in senior management do not understand IT. So a savvy salesman who knows the right words can convince the guys at the top to do what he (its almost always a he) says.

Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by hef19898 on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:15AM (#32777811)
SAP and ERP consultants are not your average IT consultant in that case.
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by PeterStuer on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:39AM (#32777954)
Their most succesfull salespitch to the CEO is that you're not a real company untill you join the SAP club.
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by tiborsaas on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:53AM (#32778031)
Kinda genius pitch, if a company can't burn millions without serious troubles it's not really a stable, big player :)
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by saiya-jin on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:54AM (#32778034)
Or you don't have a solid business until it withstood trial by SAP implementation and subsequent reality check
Re:What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) by speakfreely on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:08AM (#32778723)
Salesforce uses this one, too.