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Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by IceHegel on Thursday September 08, 2022 @10:44PM (#32774700)
I get why the 450% increase on BERT is the headline, but I think it's even more impressive that the smallest increase vs. A100 is still 50% (for ResNet).

You don't get these types of generational improvements in the CPU world these days. In some ways though,it’s better that the gains go to the GPU because, after years of talk, we actually do seem to be in the middle of some really awesome ML developments.

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by XorNot on Thursday September 08, 2022 @11:16PM (#32774882)
This is pretty big news when you look at the numbers floating around time to train AIs like Stable Diffusion - which is by far the most disruptive change that's happened recently. 150,000 hours just went down to 100,000 hours if we take the conservative estimate.

Not fast enough (not at the price point) but getting there: of course since it's an entirely parallel problem, the real metric is cost-per-model since in reality you'd just buy time from the cloud.

I figure we're going to start seeing some big changes once cost-per-model puts it within reach of the hobbyist. If I today could buy a custom model for say, $1000 - that's accessible to the hobbyist experimentalist.

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by 01100011 on Friday September 09, 2022 @03:47AM (#32776497)
Obviously perf and efficiency would be terrible, but could you distribute the training of a diffusion model across volunteers' computers? I would think that, for many fangroups, you'd have a lot of folks who would like to customize a diffusion model for their favorite characters and/or art.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by sanxiyn on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:59PM (#32786963)
Likely yes, it already has been done for DALL-E. Have a look at Training Transformers Together for what is involved: https://arxiv.org/abs/2207.03481.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by dannyw on Thursday September 08, 2022 @11:40PM (#32775048)
Even $10k is enough for a hobbyist group or crowd funding.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by Ajedi32 on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:54AM (#32775452)
Crowd funding models seems especially interesting, since in theory you could fully automate the process. Submit the dataset and code you want to train with, then once it's funded the service automatically runs the training and releases the resulting model to backers.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by macrolime on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:25AM (#32775936)
Such a platform should include a cloud to run the model, where backers would share the revenue earned from people using the model through an API.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by ipsum2 on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:35AM (#32775336)
Stable diffusion is on the order of millions of dollars.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by tehsauce on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:39AM (#32775372)
It was about $200k in compute.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by moonshotideas on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:01AM (#32775493)
Is there a breakdown of the costs available to view?
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by homarp on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:21AM (#32775596)
https://twitter.com/emostaque/status/1563870674111832066 says "We actually used 256 A100s for this per the model card, 150k hours in total so at market price $600k"
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by godmode2019 on Friday September 09, 2022 @03:41AM (#32776464)
But they still have those A100s?

I think you have to compare it to how much ETH you could have mined as the opportunity cost of training a model vs other uses of a GPU

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by l33tman on Friday September 09, 2022 @04:45AM (#32776903)
I think it was donated by AWS or something. This is not a scenario where it makes sense to buy and maintain your own server park of GPUs, when there is a race to the bottom already with cloud-based GPU rentals.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by homarp on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:46AM (#32777657)
Also compare the impact of releasing Stable Diffusion vs 'yet another coin'/web3 announcement.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by homarp on Friday September 09, 2022 @05:11PM (#32784967)
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by justatdotin on Thursday September 08, 2022 @11:18PM (#32774904)
> by far the most disruptive change

that has been disclosed :/

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by colordrops on Thursday September 08, 2022 @11:32PM (#32774985)
It's disruptive because it has been disclosed.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by lunixbochs on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:00AM (#32775141)
Remember they also went from 400W on A100 to 700W on H100
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by hwers on Friday September 09, 2022 @05:36AM (#32777246)
4.5*400 is a lot lower than 700 so it’s actually a power reduction (vs using multiple A100s).
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by lunixbochs on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:25AM (#32777527)
Sure, I think having dedicated acceleration blocks for transformers explains that pretty well, and is definitely exciting for people who can take advantage of it.

I was more contextualizing this, where a potential 75% increase in power (on a smaller node) to deliver 50% more performance is less impressive:

> I think it's even more impressive that the smallest increase vs. A100 is still 50% (for ResNet)

If I were deploying 8-GPU nodes today, I'm not sure whether I would want to pick between 4-GPU nodes or doubling my node TDP. The DGX A100 and H100 both have 8 cards, and 640GB of VRAM, but peak power increased from 6.2kW -> 10.2kW. If you're training giant models and constrained on VRAM, you'll potentially need just as many nodes as before just to fit your models into memory. Your training will be faster but it's hard to avoid the power increase.

The power increase is much more reasonable if you stick with PCIe SKUs (300W -> 350W, literally half the power draw of the SXM SKU), but you pay for that with 20% less compute and 33% less memory bandwidth.

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by rajnathani on Saturday September 10, 2022 @07:28AM (#32789665)
> I was more contextualizing this, where a potential 75% increase in power (on a smaller node) to deliver 50% more performance is less impressive:

That's misleading, as the GPU power utilization during ResNet is very likely not 100% for either the A100 or H100.

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by lunixbochs on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:57AM (#32791771)
I'm able to trivially sustain 83% (250W / 300W) of the TDP of an Ampere A40 training a model the size of resnet50 with a basic pytorch training loop.

Remember the lower-TDP PCIe H100 has 20% slower compute and 33% slower memory than the SXM model, suggesting the increased power delivery from the PCIe (350W) to SXM (700W) model is a major factor in the performance even for H100 vs H100.

I don't think it's misleading to say that power is extremely likely to be a factor in the demonstrated performance increase from A100 to H100 for non-transformer workloads until proven otherwise. I don't think anyone here has a DGX H100 in hand yet to test this.

Edit: wait, also I looked closer at the numbers - in MLPerf 2.1, NVIDIA only submitted results for 1x H100. There's no 1x A100 result submitted for resnet50, just an 8x A100 number, which NVIDIA seems to have divided by 8 to get a "per accelerator" number to compare to their 1x H100. That doesn't feel like a clean comparison, as you can have performance loss when scaling. I'd rather see 1v1 or 8v8.

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by pclmulqdq on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:55AM (#32775459)
Did they move to vertical power delivery for this generation? That would explain the increase in power delivery to the chip.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by sanxiyn on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:48AM (#32776087)
I don't think anyone has vertical power delivery yet.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by bambax on Friday September 09, 2022 @04:37AM (#32776842)
What is vertical power?
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by pclmulqdq on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:03AM (#32778651)
Vertical power delivery involves putting the voltage regulators on the opposite side of the circuit board of the chip, so that high-current power supplies travel a minimum distance. This reduces both resistance and inductance of the paths that power takes to the transistors, which means significantly less loss. That, in turn, means less heat related to those losses and less infrastructure to prevent those losses (fewer bypass capacitors, etc), so more of the thermal and area budgets can go to compute.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by bambax on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:10AM (#32779451)
Aaah, opposite side as in... under side? Now I get it, thanks!!
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by IceHegel on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:52AM (#32775443)
True, and a process shrink from TSMC 7nm to 4nm.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by Cacti on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:48AM (#32775418)
wow
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by DavidSJ on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:25AM (#32775280)
Note that from their chart it’s 350% faster, i.e. 4.5x as fast (they say, as is unfortunately common, “4.5x faster”).
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by omegalulw on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:14AM (#32777804)
4.5x faster seems perfectly reasonable to me, I always see the x as meaning a multiplier (or divider) over the original. Saying that this is 450% faster would be blasphemous.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by IceHegel on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:03AM (#32775502)
True, looking at the chart it's 4.5x the perf an A100 (1x), or 350% faster. Would my comment edit if I could.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by KingOfCoders on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:28AM (#32775300)
(non native speaker) Instead of the "correct" 4.5x as fast?
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by iforgotpassword on Friday September 09, 2022 @03:34AM (#32776413)
Both things are correct in the grammatical sense, but they have different meaning, and in the Nvidia case, "4.5x as fast" would have been correct, or they should have used the less impressive sounding "3.5x faster".

It might be easier to grasp if you use 1x. E.g. "it's 1x as fast" means it's exactly the same. You're applying the multiplier directly to get the new speed. 0.5x as fast means it's half as fast.

"It's 1x faster" means you add the result of the multiplication to the initial value. So it's twice as fast. 0.5x faster still means it's faster, you add 50% of the initial speed. This way you cannot really express that something got slower, except by using negative values, which might be rather confusing.

I think this might also work in most other languages originating in Europe.

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by Nimitz14 on Friday September 09, 2022 @04:00AM (#32776593)
I have never heard anybody use "x times faster" in the sense you mean here.

To my ears, "3 times faster" has the same meaning as "3 times as fast".

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by benplumley on Friday September 09, 2022 @05:15AM (#32777130)
How about "50% faster" and "50% as fast"? If these are different (which to my ear they clearly are), then "200% faster" and "200% as fast" are different too. Naturally it's all quite ambiguous so whoever's writing the press release can pick the more impressive meaning in each case.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by mkl on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:28AM (#32777548)
To me percentages behave differently from "times". I agree with you on the percentages but disagree on "times faster" and "times as fast", which I think are the same.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by IanCal on Friday September 09, 2022 @07:00AM (#32777731)
The key difference in my reading here is the use of percentages or x, where x I read as "times". I would never expect someone to say "half times faster".
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by jltsiren on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:01AM (#32777376)
The same issue exists in most European languages, and there are two schools of thought.

Some people want to use language that is logical and consistent. For them, "3.5x faster" means the same as "350% faster" and "4.5x as fast". Others believe in convenience and redundancy. They think that "4.5x faster" means the same "4.5x as fast", because the numbers are the same. Many of them don't like expressions such as "X% faster" for X >= 100, because the numbers tend to be misleading.

I used to be in the former camp when I was young. Today I'm middle-aged and lazy. When I see "3.5x" in the text, I assume that it means "3.5x". I don't want to read the text carefully to determine that you actually meant "4.5x" when you wrote "3.5x". I interpret the "faster" part as redundancy. It tells me that we are talking about speed and that the thing we are talking about is faster than the baseline.

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by KingOfCoders on Friday September 09, 2022 @04:36AM (#32776841)
Thanks!
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by probably_a_gpt on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:34AM (#32775334)
> we actually do seem to be in the middle of some really awesome ML developments

You could say we are mid-journey…

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by alchemist1e9 on Thursday September 08, 2022 @10:55PM (#32774770)
As a favor could you list what you think are the most important ML developments recently? It’s hard to keep up and I have a sense from your comment you might have a condensed summary list that might be helpful.
Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by mitchellgoffpc on Thursday September 08, 2022 @11:36PM (#32775026)
Some neat results from the last six months or so:

- Significantly-improved diffusion models (DALL-E 2, Midjourney, Stable Diffusion, etc)

- Diffusion models for video (see https://video-diffusion.github.io/, this paper is from April but I expect to see a lot more published research in this area soon)

- OpenAI Minecraft w/VPT (first model with non-zero success rate at mining diamonds in <20min)

- AlphaCode (from February, reasonably high success rate on solving competitive programming problems)

- Improved realism and scale for NeRFs (see https://dellaert.github.io/NeRF22/ for some cool examples from this year’s CVPR)

- Better sample efficiency for RL models (see https://arxiv.org/abs/2208.07860 for a recent real-world example)

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by riku_iki on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:37AM (#32776021)
> - AlphaCode (from February, reasonably high success rate on solving competitive programming problems)

reasonably high was 50% on 10 attempts, meaning success rate on first attempt can be as low as 5%, out of which who knows how many were leaked to training data.

Re:Nvidia Hopper Sweeps AI Inference Benchmarks in MLPerf Debut by IceHegel on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:58AM (#32775474)
This would basically be my list.

I'd add GPT3 & Github Copilot, which my team and I use professionally. It's far from perfect, but it's a great GSD tool especially for stuff like Regex, bash scripts, and weird APIs.