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Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:18PM (#32740965)
> city officials are asleep at the wheel

Eh, San Francisco's voters have been drinking crazy water for some time. New developments blocked by renters. Stringent building codes and environmental reviews defended by those who think they're being compassionate to the poor. Scolding tech companies for hiring in the city and then panicking when they stop hiring in the city. This obviously isn't all of them. But it's not like this wasn't predictable over the past decade.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by pixl97 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:25PM (#32741076)
Yea, people love blaming (elected) city officials but NIMBYism and "Housing is an investment that should only go up in price" will eventually kill any market.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by mochomocha on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:46PM (#32741401)
Yes, but I don't think SF is an exception here. The whole Bay Area is a NIMBY nest that looks frozen in time with infrastructure similar to what was in Europe in the 1950s. That's how my SF neighbor pays 30x less property tax than I do though, so there's that.

Too much local democracy: "I don't want someone in Sacramento deciding for me" is how you end up with this expression of pure individualism, where Atherton residents who have never taken public transportation in their life can block Caltrain development used by the working mass.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by SECProto on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:38PM (#32742174)
> The whole Bay Area is a NIMBY nest

The whole every urban area of North America is a NIMBY nest. Pretty much every city is stuck with swathes of land zoned only for single family homes, with any density needing development agreements and land use change hearings and etc. Some cities are less geographically constrained (more sprawl is possible) or slower growing (the zoning changes can accommodate the growth) but the issue is the same everywhere.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by awad on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @01:02AM (#32746513)
You can search through the New York City zoning map here and would be hard pressed to find areas zoned exclusively for single family homes....https://zola.planning.nyc.gov/
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by SECProto on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @08:48AM (#32749861)
That's a great mapping tool! Yes, much of NYC would be the exception that proves the rule. However, if you turn on the R-1 to R-4 layers (which corresponds to single and two-family housing with off-street parking required for each unit), you see vast swathes of Queens highlighted in yellow, much of it within a very short walk to rail transit. Check how strict the requirements are for an R-4 Infill development (and then realize that that is much much easier than densification of any other NA city R zoning that I'm aware of)
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by georgeecollins on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:50PM (#32742334)
Smart, ethical people-- like the ones here-- can be YIMBYs. Suburb I live in everyone is mad about: "McMansions" (whatever that means), multi-family homes and any development particularly apartment buildings. These people need to be shamed for their selfishness. I am a homeowner and a YIMBY. Join me!
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by alistairSH on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @04:19PM (#32742674)
McMansions (whatever that means)

A cookie-cutter, mass-produced home that has no clear architectural style and prizes superficial appearance and size over quality.

https://mcmansionhell.com/

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by TravHatesMe on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @04:15PM (#32742637)
Great so will you volunteer to support a high rise behind you overlooking your house and backyard, a methadone clinic to your left, and train tracks to your right? Throw in a homeless encampment or two across the road to appease your bleeding heart.

Sorry for being facetious, I sound like a jerk, but there must exist a threshold in willingness to devalue what is typically one's greatest asset and more importantly decrease your quality of life. By all means be as selfless and altruistic as you would like but do not expect everyone else to follow suit.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by SECProto on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @05:28PM (#32743429)
> Great so will you volunteer to support a high rise behind you overlooking your house and backyard, a methadone clinic to your left, and train tracks to your right? Throw in a homeless encampment or two across the road to appease your bleeding heart.

Your argument boils down to "if you allow anything more than a single family home this worst-case scenario is what will come of it".

Most of those issues are issues caused by current zoning practices. If moderate density was allowed almost everywhere, then there wouldn't be this stark divide between the 99 lots that are single family homes and the 1 lot that the developer has spent 12 years getting a development agreement for and needs to build a high rise to recoup the cost. If you can build more housing almost everywhere, you eliminate much of the housing and homelessness crisis. If there are specific land uses that are incompatible with residential areas, that can be addressed.

No one who is pushing for more development wants a chemical refinery in your back yard. But maybe your the house on the corner might get turned into a modest 8 unit apartment building, same as happened widely before the 1970s.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by teawrecks on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @05:29PM (#32743449)
Yes. In. My. Back. Yard. Please.

I don't see the point of adding homeless encampments. We already have those. What I want is a Housing First model as it's proven to effectively address homelessness in multiple countries around the world.

But yes, I would love public transit coming closer to my house, I would love a dense living situation that's walkable with cafes, pubs, and shops underneath. I want to live in a so-called "5 minute neighborhood" and/or "15 minute city". I hate having to drive 20+ minutes through traffic lights to do anything.

I wanted these things before I bought my house, but it's too expensive to buy a large enough space for my needs in a place that has all of these things nearby. Not because it has to be, but because zoning laws enforced by NIMBYs enforce it.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by midislack on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:44PM (#32742249)
Every property owner is NIMBY. Renters don't have to care and can just fly away.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by lotsofpulp on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @04:03PM (#32742505)
A very small percentage of renters do not have to care and can just fly away.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:29PM (#32741131)
> "Housing is an investment that should only go up in price" will eventually kill any market

It doesn't have to. Housing can be affordable while going up in nominal terms.

Neither do I think most San Francisco homeowners think about housing supply strategically. They're pissed off about a specific view being blocked. Or construction noise. Or their area's average rent going up. (?!?) Alternatively, they're comfortable and can't imagine someone might be better off housed in worse conditions, cheaply, than struggling to make rent in a decked-out flat.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by scarby2 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:39PM (#32741270)
> Housing can be affordable while going up in nominal terms.

Housing cannot be affordable if it goes up in real terms though. In an ideal world house prices would increase 1:1 with wage growth from an affordable baseline.

There are 2 ways to fix it: either crash the market or introduce policies which will cause either stagnation or below inflation growth in housing prices for at least 20 or 30 years.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by happyopossum on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:50PM (#32741467)
> In an ideal world house prices would increase 1:1 with wage growth from an affordable baseline.

There's only one way to do that - a command economy, with all housing owned and doled out by the government. That just doesn't work, anywhere, ever.

You have to work very hard to ignore the fact that some places are more desirable than others to live in, and sometimes those desirable places change. Also, different people have different priorities, desires, and ability to afford both for their housing. How do you accommodate that pressure without 100% control over the entire real estate market?

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by galaxyLogic on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:08PM (#32741762)
You don't need to have "100% control" of the market. Government policies can help steer the situation in one direction or other. It's not like there must be either 100% or 0%. There are 50 shades of gray in between.

Nobody's trying to realistically get to the "ideal world". What you want is an "improved world".

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by bombcar on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:00PM (#32741643)
It's a good question and how we "did" it in the past might need to be investigated.

House prices and appreciation were basically the same throughout the US until something like the 1950s, when places like CA began to far outstrip other parts of the country. I don't think that CA became a desirable place to live suddenly in the 50s, but perhaps it did?

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by californical on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:09PM (#32741783)
It became a lot easier to move across the country with the rise of cars and commercial flying, and CA is a really nice place (from a climate and natural beauty perspective, plus the thriving industries). So it may not be the only reason, but I think if prices were equal, many people would choose CA over Indiana for example, if they were looking to move somewhere new.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by lotsofpulp on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @04:06PM (#32742537)
The relevant metric is did a place become far more desirable to far more people. Which seems obvious when information becomes more and more available, culminating with instant transmission of pictures and videos and forums that create lists of the most scenic or best weather or best beaches, etc.

This is also ignoring sheer population growth, and the unrivaled economic behemoths that have come out of California since the 1950s and produced a ton of wealth for Californians.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by pixl97 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @08:05PM (#32744756)
Huge population growth without corresponding new home growth.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by falcolas on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:26PM (#32742020)
In the 50’s, the population of the U.S. was under half of what it is now. And lots of professionals (and their high wages) like to live, or must live, in urban areas driving prices up in those same areas.

Supply and demand, combined with “rugged individualism” valued so highly in the states. That individualism is largely what drives NIMBY mentalities.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by ItsMonkk on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:23PM (#32741987)
> and doled out by the government

Not necessary. A land value tax provides a market-based solution to this problem.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by Willish42 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @04:12PM (#32742603)
> a command economy, with all housing owned and doled out by the government. That just doesn't work, anywhere, ever.

We need a shared definition of "working" then. There are plenty of ways to disincentivize low-density real estate development and incentivize high density and affordable housing, and all of them involve regulation and tax reform to control the market to some degree.

This post apparently assumes any non-free-market structure that "doesn't work" would be a worse outcome than we have currently, where there are more vacant homes than homeless people.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by nemothekid on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:06PM (#32741728)
>That just doesn't work, anywhere, ever.

Except for Vienna.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by GekkePrutser on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:23PM (#32741979)
Yes Vienna does an amazing job but nobody in other cities seems to notice :(
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by etc-hosts on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:40PM (#32742211)
Singapore?
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by danenania on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:45PM (#32742271)
I think in an ideal world housing would continually fall in price (in real terms), just like other goods and services. Why shouldn't it? In most places, there's plenty of space, plenty of room to increase density, and in most western countries population isn't growing that fast (if at all). Any policy designed to prop up housing prices is just welfare for the rich.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by alex_young on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:06PM (#32741738)
Why can’t new housing reflect the actual cost of materials and labor, with a marginal land value, and existing housing generally increase in land value because it is more desirable? That’s the way it used to work, and many people gained appreciation in their houses simply because of growth.

The real underlying problem is a lack of new housing stock, at least partly due to the decade long neglect in the construction trade following the housing bubble collapse.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by xboxnolifes on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @05:26PM (#32743410)
> Housing cannot be affordable if it goes up in real terms though.

Yes it can. It just cannot be better than other comparable investments. If single family housing appreciated, on average, 0.25% per year in real terms, we'd likely be looking at an entirely different housing market.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by AlexandrB on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:37PM (#32741245)
> It doesn't have to. Housing can be affordable while going up in nominal terms.

For how long? If housing is a good investment, eventually the cost of housing will outpace the ability of new entrants to the market to afford it. If you're already "in the market", you might be OK. But if you're not, even the down payment may be completely out of reach.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:38PM (#32741265)
> For how long?

Infinitely. Wages go up in nominal terms, too. What matters is the real housing price hovering around zero. (Slightly above, localized, is also fine if balanced by migration.)

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by bombcar on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:02PM (#32741669)
Real "house price" for a given house should actually go down over time, because it gets older and worn down and just not quite as good as the new hotness.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:15PM (#32741868)
> Real "house price" for a given house should actually go down over time, because it gets older

House, as in structure, yes. Home, as in structure + land, probably not. Real wages are higher today than they were in the 80s [1]. One would expect some of that to filter into land value.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by mechanical_bear on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:16PM (#32741884)
Most people are constantly doing upgrades to their homes, as well as maintenance.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by JamesBarney on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:42PM (#32741336)
Inflation and real wage growth.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by ransom1538 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:49PM (#32741442)
Long time resident. There are three groups in SF: Long term renters (on rent control), renters that will leave and owners. Basically, only the long time renters and owners vote. Owners don't want any new construction. Long time renters don't want rent raised. So there you go. Nothing gets done.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by justapassenger on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @04:00PM (#32742459)
> "Housing is an investment that should only go up in price" will eventually kill any market

While I do get your point, it also has been generally true, for most modern cities for a long time (excluding short term fluctuations). Prices will go up as, as long as city is desirable to live in.

It holds true, long as cities don't collapse, which policies that lead to increasing prices of housing also can contribute to, by making city not desirable to live in.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by parineum on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:43PM (#32741355)
NIMBYism is only a problem because you aren't allowed to build anywhere but their back yards.

Maybe when all of this commercial real estate dies they'll rezone/remove zoning and allow people to build where they can.

Sure residents can be NIMBYs but FAANG doesn't want to have their beautiful campuses flanked by the poors either.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by jfghi on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:34PM (#32741203)
I agree that nimbyism is harmful, however I also think that the organizations owning large portfolios of properties can generally find a way to maintain scarcity levels in the presence of additional construction.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by JamesBarney on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:14PM (#32741845)
How? If you own 10% of the rental units in San Francisco, how do you enforce scarcity except by trying to prevent construction?
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by jfghi on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:24PM (#32742005)
I’d claim that if a person owns 10 percent they can afford to fill 9 percent of those and push up prices such that it becomes a net gain. It seems as though housing is priced on the edges of supply and demand and that a slight excess of either can shift prices for the future units being bought or rented.

I once spoke with a general manager of a large hotel that explained to me how certain levels of vacancy were targeted for this reason. I feel as though the methodology would be somewhat analogous.

Further, there is statistical modeling for sale that indicates what can be afforded in geographic locations. I’d claim that additional housing would be priced to what’s affordable rather than attempting to outbid the lowest listing as housing is a price-inelastic good.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by JamesBarney on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @11:34AM (#32752012)
If we in increased or decreases the number of units in San Francisco by 0.1%, i.e. added added 400 units. How much would that affect price?

We can then reason backwards on what's the minimum sized landlord that would benefit from artificially restricting supply.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by raverbashing on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:58PM (#32741604)
For real. I really don't know why people would bother opening offices there. Especially post pandemic

"Investment", VCs are all around the US now and those who refuse to invest outside of city boundaries are going to have a bad time. At this point even setting shop in LA might be cheaper and give you a nicer scenery.

"Talent", hire remotely for the most talent-sensitive positions. Your react app is not rocket science.

The NIMBYs are right, we should stop moving there and stop paying them those extortionate rents.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by llsf on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:44PM (#32741356)
I guess we got the elected we voted for. Now unfortunately, we did not have much choice. Nonetheless they are supposed to plan for this city. They should recognize that NIMBism is not sustainable. The BoS needs to act swiftly and help convert most of the commercial into residential units. This could help mitigate the issue. If Wework started to not pay its property tax, maybe converting those square feet in residential condos would at least bring some property tax money.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by balderdash on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:10PM (#32741794)
I wish I could find it, but I recall some research indicating that elected officials are very good at giving voters the stuff they want (even if it’s internally inconsistent) e.g. voters want more spending on education, healthcare and don’t want cuts anywhere else + plus want less deficit spending/balanced budget = impossible, but as the politician understood that they’d rewarded for increasing spending in your important areas, and can live with you blaming for the deficit spending because hey, what you wanted wasn’t possible…
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by pc86 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:19PM (#32741921)
It doesn't take much "research" to arrive at "politicians will give voters what they want and pass the buck on paying it."
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by balderdash on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:09AM (#32779440)
Put any other way, biters will say they want a balanced budget, then when you ask them where we should increase and decrease spending, it turns out they actually didn’t want a bladed budget, and that the politicians had given them exactly why they wanted (despite protestations to the contrary)
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by babyshake on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:28PM (#32741112)
> New developments blocked by renters.

I wonder how much of this is renters who feel they are just one IPO or acquisition away from being owners.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:35PM (#32741212)
> wonder how much of this is renters who feel they are just one IPO or acquisition away from being owners

I don't think they're the ones protesting. One, it's irrational: if a windfall is around the corner, you want prices temporarily depressed. Two, political nihilism and detachment have been fashionable among San Francisco's political middle class for a few decades now. They are more likely to be proudly refusing to vote than attending town halls, speaking to their electeds or participating in protests. (I say this with sardonic affection for dear friends.)

The second point is starting to change. But culture has inertia. It will take time.

Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by 0000011111 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:41PM (#32741316)
Maybe the poop on the street has made its way into the water supply and that is affecting the management?
[dead]
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by Raptor22 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:34PM (#32741196)
Oh dear God, here we go...
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by akomtu on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @04:01PM (#32742481)
GP made a valid point, but there is a caveat: this will is diffused, isn't guided by reason and avoids action. If SF was a man, that man would be, technically, a schizophrenic with multiple personslities in him fighting each other. The city council simply manipulates this man.
Re:San Francisco braces for commercial real estate crash by colechristensen on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:28PM (#32741117)
It's fine to block new residential developments if you also block new commercial developments.

Maintain a ratio of residential to commercial and you don't have housing crunches and can keep your city at the density your residents choose.