I would agree with the main sibling comment here. Pithy remarks about Elon Musk, about anyone really, generally don't add anything to the discussion and are very tired topics, particularly when they aren't even humorous in any way.

You actually make a fairly decent point (FSD being forever "soon" is one example), however in most of the businesses that Elon Musk operates in, delays or outright failures are extremely common (Tesla made electric cars appealing. Basically was impossible. SpaceX developed rockets in a "few years". Basically unheard of since Apollo-era. And so on).

So I would probably lean on the side of "give the dude some slack"?

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32658796.

Could we please tone down these comments about Musk? Literally every thread about SpaceX/Tesla/etc has dozens of them. It's not interesting at all anymore, and adds nothing to the discussion. Everybody has already heard this opinion dozens of times.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I think it's interesting that this reached the front page of HN at all, and I have to think it's _because_ of the cult of personality around Musk.

Some of these comments suggest that having satellite internet onboard a cruise ship is a new thing. It's certainly not.

After some quick googling it looks like the current provider is O3b Networks (now part of SES), using modem equipment manufactured by ST Engineering iDirect.

I somehow doubt that when O3b Networks won that contract in 2013 it made the front page of HN. But now, there's "SpaceX's Starlink" in the title and it sits on #7 on the front page with 130+ comments.

I don't venture too far on the internet, but the only thing like a cult of personality around Musk I've seen is the anti-Musk cult going on and on about how he is a "garbage human", he's a fraud, not a real engineer, and how annoying his cult followers are, when it comes to any vaguely related topic.

This story for example, of the comments where Musk is first mentioned in a thread, 3 (including the dead one) are anti-Musk, and 1 is neutral (using Musk as shorthand for Musk's businesses), and zero are positive. Nothing rabidly pro-Musk.

So I rather think stories like this are being upvoted because people like hearing about travel, internet and comms, rockets, satellites, and the like. I don't think it's very charitable to think it's only due to some vapid Musk fan club.

Funny you should say that - how much does Tesla spend on marketing vs other car companies?

How much does spacex spend on marketing?

Just because some people (excluding you) think his products are awesome, doesn't mean he oversold it.

Tesla launched a car into space. That's significantly more costly than the vast majority of ad campaigns.

Also, Elon constantly oversells his products every chance he is given - Tesla shows, any interview, I think he managed to do it even when he went on SNL.

> Tesla launched a car into space.

It was a dummy payload. Sure the car was more expensive than a block of concrete, but not by much.

Elon claims SpaceX was started because he couldn't inspire people with a martian greenhouse photo. So it is "in character" for him to do inspiring things if possible along the way.

The point is that it was a marketing stunt for Tesla. It was inspiring alright - inspiring people to associate Tesla with cool space stuff, and hopefully buy one.

Sure, but the cost to Tesla was one car, one camera, one video transmitter and probably the most expensive part, a license for David Bowie's Starman.

Perhaps that's "significantly more costly than the vast majority of ad campaigns", but only because the vast majority of ad campaigns are not very costly at all (I guess the dominant ad campaign by number is a limited online or local print one for a small business, costing in the low 4 figures). Certainly it wouldn't be significantly more costly than the vast majority of ad campaigns for car manufacturers, though.

A shame his mouth counterbalanced much of the value from those fantastic stunts.

Tesla didn’t launch a car into space, SpaceX did. It was either a car or a chunk of concrete.

If you don't think that was a marketing stunt for Tesla, I don't know what to tell you.

If you think Tesla paid for it, I don’t know what to tell you.

I think he constantly undersells compared to the CEOs and marketing dept of other companies talking about their products.

I haven't seen other CEOs randomly mention on every interview they attend that their company is literally intended to save mankind from complete disaster by moving us to another planet.

I also haven't seen any other car company CEO claiming that the car they sell you will literally pay for itself in 1 year by collecting faires as a robotaxi starting from 2019.

I also haven't seen any other company CEO claiming that their company will give you virtual immortality by uploading your brain into a computer.

Well, I should say for all of these, any other CEO that is not running a scam company.

Really? Every second company I seem to hear about is literally saving the planet from global warming, valiantly defending and saving the weak and oppressed, battling bigotry, bringing truth and enlightenment to the world, all sorts of wild hypocrisy and lies.

Musk claims to be worried about the earth becoming uninhabitable and has the goal of starting a colony on Mars to mitigate that risk. Do you think that's just a lie he's telling to somehow get richer? That he doesn't really have that concern or aim? What's the scam here?

Sure he is over-optimistic and hypes is products and over-promises. When it comes to rockets, so does NASA, Boeing, ULA, Aerojet Rocketdyne, Northrop Grumman, Blue Origin, Arianespace... well probably most of them. When it comes to electric or autonomous cars, so does GM, Ford, Toyota, VW, Uber... also probably most of them.

> Do you think that's just a lie he's telling to somehow get richer? That he doesn't really have that concern or aim?

Yes, that aim is impossible for the forseeable future, and for the effort and resources you would spend making a self-sustaining Mars colony, if it's in any way possible, you can definitely make the Earth habitable after any possible disaster that doesn't destroy the whole orbit.

For the others, find me one other example that has so constantly spread such lies.

He saves taxpayers billions of dollars bidding on competitive contracts providing the government with launch services (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competitio...). He has an ambitious plan to send people to Mars which you don't happen to like.... So what's step 3? Where's the scam?

It's not that "I don't like" the plan, it's that the plan is impossible. We don't have anything like the technology required to created a self-sustaining colony on Mars, and we may never have it.

Also, I'm not saying that SpaceX or Tesla are a scam, they are clearly companies that have achieved huge milestones and are producing and selling real products. I'm just saying that he massively over-promises and over-hypes his products, far beyond what other CEOs of actual companies do.

He does sometimes end up over promising so much that he has run afoul of false advertising laws, or very near - particularly with "full self-driving".

It is that you don't like it, unless you know exactly what his goal is and are in an authoritative position to say it is impossible.

You also are saying they're scams.

> Well, I should say for all of these, any other CEO that is not running a scam company.

And just about all the rocket and self driving and electric car companies and government organizations I listed massively over promised things. Tesla and Space X aren't the worst of the bunch as far as I can see. How are you measuring these over promises compared with others?

I think what this looks like is you just personally hate Musk and are trying to come up with reasons for it that don't sound petty or unreasonable. You don't have to, you're allowed to hate him for whatever reason you like, and you don't have to explain yourself to anybody.

> It is that you don't like it, unless you know exactly what his goal is and are in an authoritative position to say it is impossible.

He is saying that his goal is to make humanity multi-planetary, so that it can survive a disaster that may happen to the earth.

This goal is impossible with anything resembling current technology. This is obvious if you think about it even for a little bit. So it's either a lie, or he hasn't thought about it for more than a little bit.

> You also are saying they're scams.

No I'm not. I'll repeat it again: SpaceX and Tesla are serious companies producing worthwhile products that people want. They have both broken ground in areas where no company has broken ground for a long long time, and they have generally left older companies in their spaces in the dust.

This doesn't mean that Musk doesn't try to present them as even more than they actually are, for purposes that I'm sure are part ego boosting, part clever marketing. He often outright lies while doing so, or promises impossible goals in impossible timelines.

> He is saying that his goal is to make humanity multi-planetary, so that it can survive a disaster that may happen to the earth.

Great, that's a cool goal. Especially with so much concern about existential threats to humanity on earth.

> This goal is impossible with anything resembling current technology. This is obvious if you think about it even for a little bit. So it's either a lie, or he hasn't thought about it for more than a little bit.

Or he wants to improve on current technology, like he's been doing.

> No I'm not. I'll repeat it again: SpaceX and Tesla are serious companies producing worthwhile products that people want. They have both broken ground in areas where no company has broken ground for a long long time, and they have generally left older companies in their spaces in the dust.

Okay you backed down on that now, but you did say it before in the part I quoted.

> This doesn't mean that Musk doesn't try to present them as even more than they actually are,

Like all companies including the many competitors I listed.

> for purposes that I'm sure are part ego boosting, part clever marketing. He often outright lies while doing so, or promises impossible goals in impossible timelines.

I still think it's that you hate Musk and are fixating on him. When I asked you to explain why it's a scam for example, you couldn't. So just a bit more thinking through things seems to help bring a bit more clarity and perspective.

I mean you're asking about other companies and CEOs, I can't understand it you must be willfully looking the other way. The CEO of BP has has branded himself a visionary leader who is fighting climate change, for example. And that kind of bullshit is common among petroleum corporations, that was just the first example I searched for.

So, it's just all pretty rich to hear you talking about how other CEOs are great and don't do all these terrible things you imagine Musk does. I mean, there are perfectly good reasons to hate Musk, but when you start trying to say other CEOs are much better by comparison and that's your justification for it, I think that demonstrates it's not very rational in this case.

Overselling is not about ad spend. It's about promises given.

Nothing. Because you clearly seem inspired to defend him on the internet instead :)

Though there's a distressing culture of nerds who salivate at every brain fart he puts out into the world