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Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by reustle on Friday August 26, 2022 @07:57AM (#32606189)
Will there ever be a point where as a society we agree to put an upper cap on the size of companies? Does Amazon really need to absorb even more? Doesn’t that stifle competition?

I understand that enforcement is hard as the rule wouldn’t be global, but still curious.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by WhyNotHugo on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:09AM (#32606315)
If regulators that controlled anti-competitive behaviours existed, they'd forbid such acquisition.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by kmlx on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:38AM (#32606618)
> Will there ever be a point where as a society we agree to put an upper cap on the size of companies?

it would be great if we could first put a cap on the biggest culprit: government.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by blantonl on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:49AM (#32606738)
There is a cap on the biggest culprit, and it's renegotiated and voted on often by elected officials.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by kmlx on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:54AM (#32606790)
what is the cap and what’s the independent regulator’s name in the US?
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by AlexandrB on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:07AM (#32606967)
This government represents the people. Companies represent the interests of their owners.

This point would make more sense if I could vote for the leadership team at Amazon.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by tmikaeld on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:10AM (#32606322)
Amazon is still tiny compared to the enormous size and width of Samsung, that spans, Electronics, Electro-Mechanics, SDI, SDS, Engineering C&T, Heavy Industries, Life Insurance, Fire & Marine Insurance and more..
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by shakes_mcjunkie on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:30AM (#32606531)
Okay well break them up too.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by rvz on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:39AM (#32606625)
Exactly. They also need to be broken up as well.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by tmikaeld on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:42AM (#32606645)
They are broken up, as separate companies that cooperate between them.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by tasubotadas on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:23AM (#32606443)
Because of limits like these India economy has lost 4 decades of growth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licence_Raj

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by syzar on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:32AM (#32606549)
Wouldn’t that point more to an issue with the implementation of the limit rather than the existence of the limit? Are all implementations equally bad?
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by tasubotadas on Friday August 26, 2022 @05:06PM (#32612762)
Ah... a classical argument of the "communism was never truly implemented" :).

Perhaps. Perhaps initiatives likes these are bound to fail. Not sure how many lives have to be destroyed until people get "statistically significant" results.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by syzar on Friday August 26, 2022 @11:43PM (#32615421)
If it’s not the implementation that is to blame then one should use an argument that consists of more than one example provided by the highly corrupt governing structures common in India.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by shakes_mcjunkie on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:30AM (#32606522)
That's not even close to what we have today in the US. Antitrust basically doesn't exist in the US.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by ctvo on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:28AM (#32606507)
> Does Amazon really need to absorb even more? Doesn’t that stifle competition?

The burden of proof is on you. How does this stifle competition? Why can't Amazon own EA? A gut "they'll be too big / successful / profitable" is not enough.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by 4eleven7 on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:14AM (#32606351)
Antitrust law does exactly this. If Amazon owning EA overly concentrates market power/forms a monopoly, it'll be rejected and the deal with fail.

Why would you want to put an upper cap on the size of companies? It feels like stifling innovation and productivity, which will be overly negative for everyone.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by loudmax on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:40AM (#32606631)
I think I agree with your point that antitrust laws should focus on preventing monopolies rather than on limiting size per se. Ideally, a company should be able to grow to any size so long as it doesn't prevent competition.

In practice, large companies have been able to use their leverage to influence political outcomes and antitrust laws have not been enforced. It's good that we have laws to ensure a free market, but they're not much use if they're ignored.

In this case, I'm not sure that Amazon acquiring a video game company does much to hinder competition. There are lots of indie video games and I don't see that Electronic Arts has any particular technology that locks in customers or excludes other vendors.

As a society we absolutely should be vigilant against concentrations of power, foremost of which are the big tech companies. But when it comes to monopolies, there are more significant things to worry about than this particular acquisition.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by webmobdev on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:25AM (#32606455)
> It feels like stifling innovation and productivity, which will be overly negative for everyone.

From a business perspective that might be partly true. But anti-trust / anti-competition policies are not just to provide a level playing ground for businesses but also consumers. A giant conglomerate might have a higher productivity, but that doesn't mean that benefit will be passed to the consumer unless they have rival businesses to compete with. Competition promotes more innovation and is more socially beneficial to both businesses and consumers than giant conglomerates that just become obese and unhealthy after a point.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by killyourcar on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:25AM (#32606462)
Amazon owning EA will absolutely stifle innovation, especially given their history in the gaming space.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by master_crab on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:42AM (#32606654)
I’m not disagreeing with the general jist of your argument, but EA hasn’t exactly been a hotbed of innovation in years.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by moomin on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:12AM (#32607020)
Honestly, whilst very successful, they’ve become so inessential I have forgotten what they actually make anymore.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by 4eleven7 on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:07AM (#32606957)
Why will Amazon stifle innovation? All EA do is release the same games every year with slightly different content (FIFA, Battlefield, Madden, Sims, etc).

What am I missing?

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by killyourcar on Monday August 29, 2022 @01:09AM (#32634980)
A whole bunch of innovative games? Skate 4, It Takes Two, Star Wars Squadrons, Jedi Fallen Order, Apex Legends, A Way Out, Fe, and arguably battlefield 5.

Yes, plenty of annual sports games, though even those evolve over time with different career modes and gameplay. But EA is still making moves in the space.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by syzar on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:30AM (#32606529)
It seems to me most innovation comes from increased competition and upstart companies. Do large conglomerates provide the main driver of innovation?
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by 4eleven7 on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:18AM (#32607095)
True, and I agree, but an 'upper cap' wouldn't be used against just the companies that we don't think provide innovation (such as Amazon in this scenario). The caps would also be used against Tesla and Apple, two very big drivers of innovation, and probably many others. The world would be a worse place without Tesla, and without Apple. Arguably the world could be a better place without Amazon, but that is surely down to consumer voting with their wallet, the executive team, and shareholders encouraging Amazon, rather than the government not restricting Amazon. Amazon aren't buying EA, only because they can.

Once again, how can someone define an 'upper cap', is it market size? Is it revenue, or employee count? Market share? The unintended consequences of an upper limit doesn't seem to me something we should be encouraging.

I could be wrong, it just feels like we shouldn't be restricting everyone because of one bad actor.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by syzar on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:23AM (#32607167)
From my perspective for every large innovator like Apple there are several like Comcast. While Apple would not exist in the hypothetical world where max size exists for companies who knows what other innovations would exist or would not have been quashed by large companies. There are unintended consequences with the status quo. It’s easy to overlook those because we are used to the system in place. Are those unintended consequences worth keeping? I don’t know but it’s worth exploring other options.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by AlexandrB on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:13AM (#32607034)
I think it depends. Bell labs famously invented many of the foundations of modern computing while Bell was a monopoly. It's also hard to do capital intensive research (e.g. semiconductor manufacturing) as an upstart. You need the resources of an Intel.

Meanwhile, companies that leverage existing technologies in new ways can be innovative with much fewer resources - e.g. your typical web startup.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by syzar on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:26AM (#32607205)
One can find examples in support of either position. What is the overall benefit of one side vs. the other? I don’t know the answer and it isn’t clear to me which is the better option. There are pro and cons to both positions.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by alberth on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:04AM (#32606263)
> put an upper cap on the size of companies

How would you measure “size”?

EDIT:

What do you mean by "cap" then? Would you force the company to be broken apart into smaller independent companies if it exceeded whatever cap is defined?

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by choeger on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:10AM (#32606320)
Simple. Revenue. Tax a company's revenue progressively. (Of course it's complicated to implement this with companies owning companies, but you get the gist.)
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by alberth on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:27AM (#32607225)
In the US at least, corporate taxes are progressive.

Taxes are on earnings though, not revenues (you could be unprofitable and as such, pay no taxes).

Question: so are you suggesting then that just because a company's revenues (I think you mean "earnings") have exceeded X, that they should be completely broken up as a company?

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by choeger on Friday August 26, 2022 @03:50PM (#32611966)
> so are you suggesting then that just because a company's revenues (I think you mean "earnings") have exceeded X, that they should be completely broken up as a company?

Yes. But I meant revenues. If we want companies to become smaller, taxing their revenue progressively would compell their owners to split them up into independent entities. Think about it as a progressive VAT.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by amelius on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:51AM (#32606766)
Number of people employed.

If you can rake in billions using a team of 50 people, that is great, and should be allowed.

Also, a company like Apple should be allowed. What should not be allowed is for Apple to own its entire supply chain (which would not be possible if company size was limited by number of people).

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by alberth on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:31AM (#32607274)
Employee as the metric doesn't work.

Consulting businesses are literally in the business to resell their employed talent. Their "product" is their employees.

As such, they type of business by its very nature have a disproportionately large number of employees. E.g. Accenture employees 700,000 people, Tata Consulting 600,000.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by amelius on Friday August 26, 2022 @11:27AM (#32608757)
Consulting businesses could be an exception.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by hestefisk on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:16AM (#32606373)
Revenue or balance sheet
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by alberth on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:32AM (#32607283)
What happens if the company is unprofitable?

Do you mean "earnings"?

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by robertlagrant on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:09AM (#32606313)
"Need"?
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by ehnto on Friday August 26, 2022 @01:07PM (#32610119)
Does a company need to be beneficial to an organized society, or does a company need to grow at all costs in order to accumulate wealth? I'd argue the first, but America doesn't really have a clear stance. Certainly no consensus. I think this detail confuses the conversation a lot, because when we talk about growth, we could be talking about hard metrics like GDP or stock price, or we could be talking about soft metrics like livability, success, substance and quality, and happiness as a society.
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by robertlagrant on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:27PM (#32620651)
It doesn't need to do either. This is a false dichotomy. A company needs to be legal, and be useful enough to its customers that it is sustainable. That is what a company needs. There is no "useful to society" as there is no monolithic "society".
Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by ehnto on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:19PM (#32621099)
When we're talking about laws we're specifically discussing the interaction between companies and "our society" or our communities. Broad strokes like "society" just make it easier to talk about.

A company as big as Amazon exists across thousands of communities, and in contexts that don't even include communities. It can afford to harm some contexts while profiting on others, because it is a monolith. That's why when we talk about business law we need to consider more than just the simple economics, because companies can have greater impacts than that.

Anti-competitive laws are just that, they're not about increasing simple metrics, they're about managing the harder to measure externalities of bigger companies like the ability for a market to be competitive, promote innovation, and to make sure customers have enough choice to choose with their wallet.

Re:Amazon is not going to make a bid for Electronic Arts – s... by robertlagrant on Sunday August 28, 2022 @02:55PM (#32630941)
> Broad strokes like "society" just make it easier to talk about.

I'd say they make it easier to make mistakes in reasoning. Just as unilaterally deciding what "we're" talking about is also a mistake.

Positing that Amazon is too big to buy a computer game company is just wrong. This in no way creates a monopoly on computer game creation, which is one of the best industries on the planet in terms of lack of lock-in in the forms of regulation, machinery, or IP law. Have computer, download Godot, get going.

Also, Amazon is a silly company to level that charge at. They in no way control a significant amount of the game creation industry. You may be thinking of Microsoft.