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Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by Gud on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:28AM (#32579908)
If it’s licensed for “non-commercial use”, it is no longer open source. But you are correct that the dual source licensing scheme can work, look at NGINX(BSD license) and NGINX Plus.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by cbm-vic-20 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:39AM (#32580050)
Or, dual license with a negotiated commercial license, and a "business unfriendly" license like GPL. I've worked at a company that uses a library* that is licensed this way, and they went with the commercial license so they didn't have to conform to the rules of the GPL.

* https://ckeditor.com/

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by varispeed on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:33AM (#32580760)
It is open source. Just that big corporations can't profiteer from it. It seems like there is a concerted effort by people working for these big corporations to discredit dual licensing. Software that is free to be exploited for profit lets these companies avoid hiring extra employees and paying taxes.

Promotion of (corporate version of) open source is designed to cut costs of R&D - so people use their own money and resources to create projects and then big corporation comes in and appropriates the successful ones without paying anything. Sometimes they contribute some code back, job done.

Then you have a situation where big corporation makes millions or even billions using the software and original developers are struggling to make ends meet.

This is wrong!

Every open source project should be dual licensed, so the authors can be properly compensated!

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by jahewson on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:09PM (#32581397)
No, it’s not open source. Period. Why are people trying to argue black is white?

https://opensource.org/osd

The OSD was created precisely to prevent this kind of underhanded twisting of words.

Want to use a non-open license, go for it! But find your own phrase to describe it. “Open source” is taken.

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by imtringued on Thursday August 25, 2022 @06:23AM (#32591792)
Ok my hypothetical project isn't opensource, it is merely AGPL licensed with an optional commercial license.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by unethical_ban on Monday August 29, 2022 @03:09PM (#32642203)
Alright, "sustainably developed".
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by varispeed on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:14PM (#32581485)
Look at the Sponsors list - it proves my point. That term has been hijacked by big corporations to ensure they have free access to projects created by community without remunerating the authors.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by jahewson on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @01:37PM (#32582913)
That’s a different angle though - you’re saying that open source has limitations if you’re an author wanting to commercially exploit it. That’s true. I don’t think that “corporations want stuff for free” really holds - they have waaaay more money than anybody and throw it around all the time. I think it’s more like, if it’s free for the taking, then why not? On the other hand, making stuff expensive is a great way to set up a barrier so that only corporations can use it.

Beyond security and interoperability I don’t see the point in projects that anyone can contribute to but only one person can profit from. Why would I contribute? I always felt this way about dual-license GPL code. It has a first-mover effect that sucks all the air out of the room for someone to create a project with more liberal licensing. How am I to set up a rival project if I don’t also want to be your business rival?

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by varispeed on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @03:40PM (#32584703)
In my country volunteering at for profit organisation is illegal. Which this essentially becomes if you allow for profit corporations to use the open source software without remuneration.

That being said, if you contribute to an open source dual licensed project, you should be getting a share of the revenue coming from corporations paying for the license.

Your idea of free software is similar to that in the music industry, where corporations want to pay for the content in "exposure".

Another thing - that comes back to my first point - is that if we allow open source contributors to not be compensated, when their projects are being used commercially, we are creating inequality, where only privileged people who can afford to commit their time for free contribute to these projects, get recognition and then subsequently may be looking at getting better jobs than those who cannot afford to contribute, because they come from poor background and need to be in paid work in order to live. In my country, when unpaid internships were legal, they were usually taken by white kids from privileged middle class families, who could pay for their food and accommodation. They were getting experience and better start in life than their poor peers.

Your idea of open source enforces inequality and is wrong!

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by imtringued on Thursday August 25, 2022 @06:24AM (#32591803)
Wow, so you're saying that the government will send interns to court and possibly jail?
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by varispeed on Friday August 26, 2022 @07:01AM (#32605771)
No. But they can send their company they volunteer at, mainly to remunerate the interns (at least minimum wage) and probably a fine.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by ebiester on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:37PM (#32581942)
AGPL is open source but in no way business-friendly.

This is much earlier than sponsorship and goes to Stallman’s Freedom 0.

You’re looking for “source-available.”

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by clcaev on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:43PM (#32582047)
The open source definition originates from Debian, driven by quite thoughtful industry practitioners.

Yes, permissive open source licenses tend to benefit large industry players.

However, you have it backwards.

We promoted these licenses to these industry players under the "Open Source" label so that we could use and contribute to free software at our day jobs, rather than being locked into a proprietary landscape.

It seems you are solving a different problem.

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by rascul on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:34PM (#32581895)
A number of those big corporations on the sponsors list publish open source software and/or contribute to open source projects. I don't know how many, but there's several I recognized (Google, Microsoft, GitHub, Comcast, Indeed).
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by rthomas6 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:28AM (#32579921)
If the non-commercial use license includes a copy of the source, why isn't that open source?
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by ZetaZero on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:35AM (#32580009)
The accepted definition of "open source" includes the ability to modify and redistribute freely. A "non-commercial use" clause limits this
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by rthomas6 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:46AM (#32580147)
I see. My mistake then. I edited the OP comment to include an actual open source version what I am attempting to describe.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by cercatrova on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:31AM (#32579954)
Open source != source available
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by colinmhayes on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:35AM (#32580004)
Disagree. Stop mangling language. Open source literally means the source code is freely available. If that's not good enough you need a new phrase.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by cercatrova on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:39AM (#32580063)
"Open source doesn't just mean access to the source code. The distribution terms of open-source software must comply with the following criteria:" (omitted here) [0]

Crucially, one cannot make their code "for non-commerical use only" and have it still be open source. It must be available for any entity to do with it what they wish. One can of course restrict that, but it would no longer be open source. Source available, perhaps, but not open source.

Therefore, ironically, it is you who should not mangle language, not me.

[0] https://opensource.org/osd

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by colinmhayes on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:37AM (#32580819)
Taking two words that have a meaning when put together and changing that meaning is mangling language. opensource.org claiming open source means something different from what the phrase literally means is more harmful than helpful. I agree, we need to be able to talk about code that is actually free for all to use. "Open source" is not the way to do that.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by olddustytrail on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @03:44PM (#32584742)
The phrase doesn't literally mean anything. Does the phrase "open door" mean the door is freely available? Does the phrase "open book" mean the book is freely available?

It's great that the phrase "open source" has been so intuitively understood but to claim it has an obvious literal meaning is just nonsense.

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by _gabe_ on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @05:05PM (#32585741)
I could care less about the terminology people use, but I feel like all your examples would point to the intuitive meaning that "open source" implies.

An open door implies you can see what's behind the door, as opposed to a closed door. An open book implies you can see what's inside a book, as opposed to a closed book. Likewise, open source implies that you can see inside the source code, as opposed to closed source.

So I think the claim that it has no obvious literal meaning is a bit hyperbolic, but I get where your thinking, since most developers automatically associate "open source" with "free code".

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by olddustytrail on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @05:42PM (#32586160)
Except the phrase "open door" doesn't mean that. It's a door you can walk through, not see through.

Perhaps Glass Source would be a more accurate phrase for code you can see but not touch.

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by imtringued on Thursday August 25, 2022 @06:21AM (#32591781)
>Taking two words that have a meaning when put together and changing that meaning is mangling language.

No that is how the English language works. Car gas and gas are two different things.

Source available is akin to putting a paper behind a piece of glass, how is that open? You can't touch it, can't modify it.

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by cercatrova on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @02:46PM (#32583968)
Sorry, I cannot agree with you. OSI came up with the term "open source," hence I will use it as it is conventionally used, ie via their definition. If you want to literally interpret that, feel free to do so but know that others, such as those commenting on your thread, will not agree with you.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by sarchertech on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:46AM (#32580982)
> It must be available for any entity to do with it what they wish.

By that definition GPL and attribution required aren’t open source.

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by colejohnson66 on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:31AM (#32595089)
GPL (and friends) are about preserving the user's rights, in exchange for the developer's. The user is free to do what they want; They can make their own personal changes and builds, but the developer can't unless they follow the license.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by stonemetal12 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:57AM (#32580278)
If we are going down that road, what does "freely available" mean? To me that would suggest Public Domain only. If you get access to the code under a license, even something as liberal as MIT license, it wasn't "freely available" you had to agree to the license.

More to the point with a no commercial clause, it isn't freely available there are restrictions on what you can do with it.

Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by Gud on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:39AM (#32580054)
No, this is not the definition of open source. Open Source was coined by OSI as an alternative (less political) than Free Software.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by clcaev on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:56PM (#32582279)
Well, it was just as political... it's just the politics favor large companies who were convinced to use and let their employees contribute to projects under a license more akin to the public domain.
Re:How to pay your rent with your open source project (2020) by kittiepryde on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:01AM (#32580346)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_software#Definit...

See the provided link. I am used to the source open / source available phrasing, but, I did not know the history behind it.