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Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by goethes_kind on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @05:45AM (#32577106)
I would agree with all of those points, except for one. I do not think it is less dangerous to pedestrians. I remember when I used to live in the Netherlands, it was uncomfortable being a pedestrian because there were so many cyclists. They are still going fast enough that if they crash into you, you can expect a concussion or even worse. And they do not respect the traffic laws in the same way that cars do. And because of the numbers of them it is hard to keep track of them.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by stinos on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @06:30AM (#32577450)
I do not think it is less dangerous to pedestrians. I remember when I used to live in the Netherlands, it was uncomfortable being a pedestrian because there were so many cyclists.

Actual statistics about encounters clearly do show it is less dangerous, and expecting a concussion to be a false interpretion of actual risks. I do get your problem though: you're not used to it. You need eyes everywhere which essentially takes training.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by LtWorf on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @07:12AM (#32577798)
Bah, in my experience bicycle users behave really badly on average. Certainly no better than car drivers.

For example they will be ready to crash on a pedestrian who is walking on a bike lane for good reason (most common ones are: an excavator made a trench on the sidewalk, the snow clearing machine took all the snow from the road and made a mountain on the sidewalk).

However when there is no bike lane available, they will have no problem in going on the sidewalk at 50km/h with their electric motor. Despite this being clearly forbidden.

And getting hit by an electric bike going 50 is no joke. You don't just get a bruise and move on with your day.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by stinos on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:03AM (#32578230)
I never said anything about behavior, only about accidents and the results thereof. I'd really really rather get hit by a cyclist at any speed than a much heavier vehicle, that's just basic physics. And your examples are just that: examples (possibly exaggerated or factually incorrect ones, re: the 50km/h on sidewalk - it's really hard for humans to correctly judge speed). Anyway: examples which I also see from time to time, but I'm well aware of things like confirmation bias so without any actual hard numbers nor specifying more variables, it's quite hard to say 'x does y on average'.

That being said, I do have the impression in the local town (but definitely not everywhere) the behavior of cyclists in general became worse in the last decades. I'd really wish I had a way to make sure, but I just don't remember seeing multiple highest category rule violations every single day.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by belorn on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:33AM (#32578533)
Take a look when outside and see if you ever see strollers or children with training wheels on bike lanes. Then ask, why don't you hear about the many deaths that should occur when those 50km/h bikes are crashing into those helpless children.

The average speed of a bike, as measured in Netherlands, is around 15km/h. When there is snow the speed is generally even lower. It is also fairly common where I live to see parents use strollers on snowy days since the bike roads tend to be clear of snow before sidewalk. No one, neither police or other pedestrians, acts as if those parents are putting their children at mortal danger. Statistics also support this.

A motorized two wheeler that can travel 50 km/h is not a bicycle, it is a moped. If its electrical then its an electric moped. Mopeds are not allowed where I live to use bike lanes unless they travel at the maximum speed of bikes. Mopeds also require a moped driving license and a license plate, and police can and has apprehended people who break the traffic law in this way.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by LtWorf on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:43AM (#32578666)
Parents don't let kids go on bike lanes until they are somewhat proficient. Certainly nobody with training wheels is going on trafficked bike lanes. Because most parents realize that would be reckless.

> Mopeds are not allowed where I live to use bike lane

Welcome to Sweden I guess… I think they are not allowed but they don't care. Electric or benzin engine alike.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by belorn on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @04:07PM (#32585075)
Parents let their kids be on the bike lane all the time. Just today on a small trip through the city, here in Sweden, with the weather being excellent, I saw around 10 kids around the age of 8 swirling on the bike lane. Naturally the parents biked next to them.

I would slightly agree that parents that train their kids on training wheels should maybe select a better place than a trafficked bike lane, but I for one is not going to stop them and tell them how to raise their kids. I would definitively not call the police and social service. I would be much more concern seeing the same behavior on the road, and if they were on the highway I would consider it.

> I think they are not allowed but they don't care. Electric or benzin engine alike.

Mopedists are what they are, or rather young adults without a driving license will behave like they always have. Motorized teens. Of course some of them will break the law. Modified electric bikes are however fairly rare since moped strength engines are generally more expensive, and if you are paying that much already then the moped license is fairly cheap to get. Modified mopeds however that goes faster than 45 km/h are very common, especially the four-wheel ones. The legal age to get a driving license is 18 so there is also a incentive to break the law for those that are around 15-18.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by neutronicus on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @09:42AM (#32579345)
Here in Baltimore I see a lot of elderly people in mobility scooters traveling in the bike lanes as well.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by kuschku on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @07:28AM (#32577908)
I wonder where they’d get an electric bicycle going 50, considering it’s impossible to buy or import ones going more than 20 km/h in most of the EU.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by stinos on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @07:58AM (#32578181)
Electric cycles reaching 45km/h are regulated in most of EU, no? On the most powerful ones it takes not too much effort to push to 50 (from experience). That being said, where I commute I practically never encounter anyone doing that (they just do the maximum they can do with assistence, like 42-45 depending on brand and model, or less to save battery/effort) except downhill, where you can reach 50 with a normal cycle as well.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by belorn on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:45AM (#32578681)
Eu regulates this by classification. A two-wheel vehicle with an electric motor that can assist up to 25 km/h is classified as an electric bike. If the two-wheel vehicle can reach up to 45 km/h, or if it don't require the rider to peddle, then its an electric moped. If it exceeds 45 km/h then its an electric motorcycle.

The classification in turn determines which laws the seller and driver is under. A bicycle doesn't require a driving license or license plate. Mopeds and motorcycles require a license plate (registered) and have corresponding driving licenses. There might also be different taxes involved.

There is a similar classification with four wheel vehicles. There is electric four wheel mopeds, tractors and cars, each defined by the maximum speed. You can even convert a car into a moped or tractor by changing the gear box to limit how fast they can go.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by bluecalm on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:45AM (#32578677)
It's easy to remove the safety mechanism. Still, I don't see people going 40+ where I live although maybe that happens in other countries. My experience is that in a city at 30km/h you are passing everyone and with significant speed difference as well.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by LtWorf on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:36AM (#32578573)
You download a chinese firmware and flash it of course…
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by kuschku on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @09:11AM (#32578987)
Then your problem isn’t with cyclists, your problem is with jackasses running illegally tuned motorcycles (because that’s what a two-wheeled vehicle that can accelerate beyond 45 km/h is) on bike lanes.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by saiya-jin on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @06:02AM (#32577244)
100% this. And Dutch cyclists are usually nicer ones. Where I live (Geneva, Switzerland), cyclists are very aggressive towards... well everybody.

As a pedestrian, I had few super close calls (5cm max) where a crowd of us pedestrians were going through the road on green light and cyclist zoomed at 30-40kph through cars on red light and our crowd, not even attempting to break. At that speed, crash can be fatal/disabling for both. Its not just theoretical - when my wife worked as doctor on biggest urgence here, they had a case where 40 year old guy was hit in same way by cyclist on pedestrian crossing, green light. He went into coma and died in 2 days. Red light is just invisible to most, unlike rest of traffic. As pedestrian I consider cars and motorbikes/scooters OK, but cyclists I avoid / look out for very carefully, especially when with kids.

They really act like everything belongs to them and they are above any constraints, be it red light, no-bike-parks for kids etc. You can't simply cross road because you as pedestrian have green light - you need to have green light and check that no cyclist is going through the town like its some post-apocalyptic wasteland with no humans around.

They are aggressive to the car drivers too - I had cases where drink cyclists were trying to damage my car by kicking into it (I was stopped on red light so no threat to anybody, no idea why). Damage to well parked car, also by cyclists. No love there despite obvious ecological benefits.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by pastage on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:36PM (#32581927)
Well you obviously made someone unhappy so there is a chance you are not as perceptive as you think. Statistics says that cyclists are like most other road users. The chance that the cyclists around you are different is a lot less likely than you cherry picking situations.

With that said, people do stupid things there are always outliers.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by saiya-jin on Thursday August 25, 2022 @05:48AM (#32591570)
I don't think you actually read what I described since you are completely oblivious to all facts stated by me and not even reacting on any of them, just dismissing everything as my fault. Looks to me exactly as cyclist mindset I write about - its not about me, rules are not for me and so on.

How did I make any cyclist unhappy by just standing still with my car on red light in a row of other cars?

How did I insult cyclists by daring to cross on green light as pedestrian?

I don't talk about outliers, I talk about daily experience for past 10 years I live here. Consistently the same. As with cars, you don't notice normal drivers/riders, but a-holes you notice well. And a-holes on bikes I do notice practically every single day, unlike any other traffic on the roads which respects basic traffic rules.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by pastage on Thursday August 25, 2022 @07:36AM (#32592311)
As I said you might just be extremely unlucky. If not maybe take a step back and analyze why your world view is different from research on how mode of transport is no indicator of behviour.

Crazy stuff happens in traffic for sure, but when someone is angry with you it is mostly because you have done something. The cases of random deliberate violence are so rare that they should not happen to you.

If you want to live a life were you assume the worst about a completly heterogeneous group of people consisting of people from all walks of life and state of mind, that represents "people", you are free to make that choice but do not blme cyclists for that. This is my point: you might feel innocent all the time, but what you do is also interpreted by others they might feel the same thing.

Again I do not really talk about you or your specific experience but in general, and what should be true for longer period of times. What you feel and experience is up to you, can't change that.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by chriswarbo on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @06:38AM (#32577515)
> And they do not respect the traffic laws in the same way that cars do

This seems to be a persistent myth. All the studies I've come across say the exact opposite; for example:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists...

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by Tade0 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @07:29AM (#32577913)
> A Transport for London study investigated the “hypothesis that the majority of cyclists ride through red lights” and discovered that 84% of cyclists stopped on reds.

Imagine 16% drivers not stopping on red.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by analog31 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:34AM (#32578539)
In my observation, the crimes of motorists and cyclists are crimes of convenience and opportunity.

Motorists exceed the speed limit, roll through stop signs, sometimes blow through red lights (every light cycle at one intersection on my daily commute), and drive while distracted (I see the cell phones from my bike).

Cyclists blow through stop signs, sometimes blow red lights, and often take shortcuts that are technically illegal.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by micromacrofoot on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:21AM (#32578408)
1 in 3 car drivers admit to running a red light in the past month (33.3%)

in 2017 over 900 americans died in accidents involving running a red light

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/08/red-light-running-deaths-hi...

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by philwelch on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:01AM (#32579575)
It’s surprising how low that is. As a point of comparison, in 2008, 809 Americans died tangled in their bedsheets (which correlates to total revenue generated by skiing facilities: https://tylervigen.com/view_correlation?id=1864)
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by micromacrofoot on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @01:48PM (#32583099)
Right, more cyclists die in general every year (1,000+), but there doesn't seem to be any data on the percentage of those deaths that may be caused by cyclists running red lights.

One safe assumption is that the number of drivers killed by bikers running red lights is near 0.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by yamazakiwi on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @03:34PM (#32584618)
That 809 number is mostly Elderly and Infants. I'm not trying to imply anything, I just find it interesting.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by banannaise on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @05:09PM (#32585789)
It's not particularly safe for cyclists to stop on reds, and not particularly unsafe for them to cross during a red light with no cross traffic. This is part of the reason that "Idaho Stop" laws are gaining traction.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by rocgf on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @06:23AM (#32577407)
That is only true in a small amount of areas, like the city center of Amsterdam. Bike lanes are separated from pedestrians, so the only issue would be crossing the street.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by LtWorf on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @07:08AM (#32577761)
I agree. In Copenhagen multiple bas stops just go onto bike traffic. And they DO NOT CARE that a bus just stopped and people are about to come out.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by Casperin on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @07:29AM (#32577918)
I live (and bike) here too. I think what you mean to say is that it can feel kind of hectic and dangerous to step out of a bus onto the bike lane.

I can promise you that every biker care. If nothing else, then at least for their own safety. And in the 35 years I've been biking around here, I've never seen a collision between someone stepping out of a bus and a bike coming from behind.

Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by LtWorf on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:40AM (#32578626)
I've also never seen a car going over a bycicle in my life… Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by tokai on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @07:57AM (#32578176)
You know that there is a difference between the stops right? If there is pavement on the side of the bikelane going out to the road, its on the bus passengers to stop and let the cyclist pass. So many pedestrians don't know this and think they can just throw themselves out on the bike lane.
Re:Things people blamed on bicycles by LtWorf on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:38AM (#32578602)
Yeah, because there aren't other passengers behind pushing.

The city is badly designed. Busses shouldn't stop on traffic.