News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Essential Climbing Knots by hprotagonist on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @08:50AM (#32411035)
in the american northeast, backup knots on a figure 8 are relatively common in gyms and rare at the crag. (and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector)

About 5-6 years ago the gyms became much more honest in their instruction for new climbers, and will now actually say the quiet part out loud, which is that a backup knot is really there to 1. ensure that new climbers leave enough of a tail on the figure 8 and 2. are a way to prevent that probably extremely conservative tail from whacking you in the balls when you take a whipper.

sport gyms absolutely do not like people who insist on tying in with a bowline.

Re:Essential Climbing Knots by bmj on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @12:42PM (#32414886)
and when you do see them at the crag, they're a good gumby detector

Huh, really? Most of the people I know who tie-in with the figure-8 use the standard overhand safety knot (or they pull the tail back through the bottom loop of the eight). Most of us have been climbing for decades. I guess old habits die hard?

Re:Essential Climbing Knots by hprotagonist on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @04:58PM (#32418373)
they do.

maybe excessively long tails are a better sign…

Re:Essential Climbing Knots by jvanderbot on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @12:07PM (#32414316)
I would never trust my safety to a bowline. It comes loose with a minimum of working. Only under constant load would I use it, and only then when double hitched, and probably with a finisher clove hitch.

Even my dog gets away from a bowline with a minimum of moving around the front yard.

Re:Essential Climbing Knots by bmj on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @12:41PM (#32414857)
I rarely see people tying in with a single bowline, for the reason you give. I've been using a double bowline with a stopper knot (http://www.vdiffclimbing.com/double-bowline/) for many years now (well, at least outside of the climbing gym). I've never had an issue with the knot loosening when not under load. The usual complaint I hear from people about using it to tie-in is that it is harder for your partner to visually verify. The figure-8 follow-through is very easy to visually check.

ETA: The last person I saw tie-in with a single bowline was Christian Griffith (of Verve fame) using it to tie-back in after cleaning the anchors of a warm-up in the Ruckman Cave at Rifle Mountain Park. He also didn't secure the rope whe he untied to thread the anchors, choosing instead to just step on it. Not exactly a great example of anchor safety...

Re:Essential Climbing Knots by jvanderbot on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @12:50PM (#32415013)
Yep, that double bowline with stopper is what I was referring to. Trouble is, it is now almost as challenging to tie as the fig-8 loop / trace.
Re:Essential Climbing Knots by hprotagonist on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @05:06PM (#32418463)
a usual reason to use it outdoors is that it’s easier to untie than a figure 8 when the rope is dirty or frozen or you were whipping on it for hours.
Re:Essential Climbing Knots by hprotagonist on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @02:57PM (#32416835)
yes, sorry: i absolutely meant double bowline there. Sloppy.
Re:Essential Climbing Knots by ct0 on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @09:10AM (#32411314)
Ive also always been in the the camp that this "backup" knot isn't backing up anything. If you want to finish the knot, the correct way to do it would be a Yosemite finish.
Re:Essential Climbing Knots by hprotagonist on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @10:56AM (#32413062)
Yep, that works well.

The balancing act the gyms, in particular, are trying to play is that knots should be both secure and easily verifiable on sight by gym staff, more or less entirely for liability reasons. A yosemite finish, or a bowline, are both dead-ass safe and in some cases better than a traced eight, but they're harder to glance at and know they're safe. That's totally fine at the crag, but it's a liability issue at the gym.