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Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by jrajav on Saturday August 06, 2022 @04:40PM (#32371407)
I strongly agree with the article's premise! I also agree with this guidepost for how we should be moving music theory past its highly entrenched and institutional attitudes:

> We should be asking: what is it that musicians are doing that sounds good? What patterns can we detect in the broad mass of music being made and enjoyed out there in the world?

I would personally add one more leading question: Can we explain music in other ways than by its harmony and chords?

A harmonic approach to analysis works fantastic for old European music, and pretty damn well for jazz too. For rock, it starts to oddly leave out important aspects of the music like rhythm, timbre, the way effects like distortion inform the harmony, vocal delivery, etc. And in the modern era, with all the advances and innovations made in the last 30 years in the now dominant genres of hip hop, pop, and electronic music, harmonic analysis is very poorly equipped to make sense of things in any meaningful way.

One music theorist who is attempting more competent analysis of contemporary music is https://www.youtube.com/c/12tonevideos. I'd love to see more of this.

Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by jancsika on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:16AM (#32374307)
> I would personally add one more leading question: Can we explain music in other ways than by its harmony and chords?

Yes. We can get a lot of mileage by talking about the form and texture.

E.g., at the end of Haydn's so-called "Lark" quartet (Op. 64 No. 5) he's got a fast-paced Rondo in D major that features a virtuosic 1st violin part with continuous fast figuration. The other voices do a light accompaniment of that fast-moving line.

It moves along about as you'd expect-- you get the main rondo theme. It gets repeated. Then a contrasting theme appears in the dominant, with a little bridge back to the original theme in D. Now that section gets repeated.

You can just hear a theory teacher outlining the form and writing the boring letters of a typical rondo form on a whiteboard while the class yawns. It's nearly the same as any other boring rondo, save for the virtuosic 1st violin.

Then, for reasons known only to Haydn, the music switches to the parallel minor key and commences a full-on four-voice fugal exposition at the same fast tempo. After about thirty seconds of some highly unexpected harmonically active imitative development, the pieces changes on a dime back to the original theme in D major, as if the fugue had never happened.

Why did he do that? Was there an arrogant 1st violinist who he wanted to challenge? Was he just fucking around? I don't know the answer. But that Finale is fucking hilarious and you only need the most basic harmonic understanding to hear it.

Mozart and Haydn were constantly playing with form in similar ways to the example above. Mozart in particular played around with dynamic contrasts-- a sudden loud chord followed immediately by a soft one. That was an influence on Beethoven, for example.

[dead]
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by jrajav on Saturday August 06, 2022 @05:28PM (#32371735)
Those genres are far and away the most popular forms of music for an entire generation now, and exhibit a high degree of craftsmanship with techniques never used before them. Whether you personally enjoy the music or not, an honest academic exploration of music would seek to understand and explain what makes those styles of music tick.
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by AlbertCory on Saturday August 06, 2022 @05:41PM (#32371817)
If you stick to "popular" I'm fine with it. Tastes change.

It's the word "advances" which I object to. There's a value judgment attached to that.

Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by cjaybo on Saturday August 06, 2022 @06:05PM (#32371996)
I don't think "advances" implies that something is subjectively better, but that it builds upon previous techniques and methods in some way.

You can dislike synthesizers and samples all you want, but there's no denying that they opened up new creative avenues for composers and sound designers.

Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by AlbertCory on Saturday August 06, 2022 @06:25PM (#32372157)
OK. Fine with me. "Your music sucks" is a totally dead end and I'm not going there.

What I will say is, arts do not advance linearly, more or less, like science does. You can't say that drama has "advanced" since Shakespeare -- it's just changed. So "what's popular?" is not a shorthand for "what's good?"

Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by crazygringo on Saturday August 06, 2022 @07:07PM (#32372413)
I think you're reading too much into the word "advanced".

One sense of "advance" does mean to improve, but another commonly used sense is simply to "move forwards". History advances, literature advances, music genres and technique advance, time advances. None of those imply improvement or a value judgment, just moving-forwards and building-upon (or building-in-reaction-to).

You can absolutely say drama has advanced since Shakespeare, and few people would misunderstand. To say it hadn't would mean nobody had continued to write plays in the same tradition of western literature.

(See [1] and contrast definitions 2 and 3.)

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/advance

Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by AlbertCory on Saturday August 06, 2022 @07:43PM (#32372600)
ok, sure, there are two senses of the word. Certainly artists react to each other and take advantage of new technology. They also make things more readily accessible to their contemporaries.

> To say it hadn't would mean nobody had continued to write plays in the same tradition of western literature.

To say it hadn't, in my sense, would mean nobody has written any "better" music than Beethoven's 9th. Nobody has.

To say it hadn't, in your sense, would mean the form of the symphony hadn't continued to evolve, and of course you're right that it has.

Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by tbossanova on Saturday August 06, 2022 @07:44PM (#32372611)
Time advances
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by tyrantalope on Saturday August 06, 2022 @07:33PM (#32372555)
Why couldn't someone say that music has advanced since x period of time? Similarly, if you ignore the popularity of music for the sake of argument, how is possible to determine if specific music is "good"? Or how would someone determine if music is advancing in the first place?
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by guelo on Saturday August 06, 2022 @11:50PM (#32373750)
Jawdropping music is produced by kids using laptops making sounds that were simply not possible a decade or two ago. If you don't enjoy the breakthroughs that are being made you are the one that's missing out.
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by bsaul on Sunday August 07, 2022 @05:04AM (#32375026)
any recommendations ?

All i've heard is mostly the same types of "sound" copied over and over again. Nothing jaw dropping so far (but there is definitely something that has to come out of this technological revolution one day...)

Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by AlbertCory on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:41AM (#32376837)
I enjoy novelty as much as the next person. Dogs on skateboards? Hey, bring it.

Doesn't mean anyone will be watching that dog video in 50 years.

Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by pvg on Saturday August 06, 2022 @06:00PM (#32371962)
Interesting conversation involves exchanging value judgements rather than pedantipoints.
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by AlbertCory on Saturday August 06, 2022 @07:37PM (#32372576)
"pedantipoints" FTW
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by someweirdperson on Saturday August 06, 2022 @07:46PM (#32372618)
And so the language advances... but did it improve?
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by AlbertCory on Saturday August 06, 2022 @09:30PM (#32373084)
Re:Toward a Better Music Theory (2013) by tomrod on Saturday August 06, 2022 @07:44PM (#32372607)
Most of these are, though, if only in terms of recombinant joy.