News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by EdwardDiego on Friday August 05, 2022 @02:09AM (#32352367)
New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore.

I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ retailers moved away from cheques in the 90s due to their massive fraudulent use case (back when cheques were common, so was chequebook theft). The last banks that would accept cheques stopped doing so in 2020, IIRC.

You can use cash, but few people do. Parking machines have tap n pay. I really only need cash when the kids are having a bake sale or disco at school.

But as part of that shift, the Government owned bank ensures that anyone can have a bank account with no fees, no matter how spotty your previous track record.

Works for us. But I don't think we'll ever go cashless, there's no real desire to do so from anyone other than the people who have to pay to make the cash.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by silvestrov on Friday August 05, 2022 @08:27AM (#32355115)
Same in Denmark (Northern Scandinavia) which has gone all-in on this. Denmark is an almost cashless society. It is seldom I see people paying cash in the supermarket. Cheques are no longer valid here: you cannot get cheques, you cannot pay with them.

Canada is not nearly as cashless as the article makes it out to be, it is amusing how much the article ignores the rest of the world.

The people hit by cashless are not the poor ones, but old people who have trouble learning to do things a new way. This also applies to communication with hospitals and docters which also is done online today in Denmark. So the cash problem is not special.

Cashless is better for the homeless as it is much harder to rob money from a cashless person. Digital payments can be traced (it took a few years for robbers in Denmark to learn this).

Banks in Denmark are required by law to give you a simple account and debit card. Governments pay out money by transfering them to your bank account. You tell the goverment which bank account you want to receive money on, like a default shipping address.

We have a very good domestic version of paypal which makes it very easy to pay other people (just type in their phone number and you can send them money). So it is easier to pay friends using this system than to use cash!

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by kurthr on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:37AM (#32352912)
In the US checks (cheques) are used mostly for significant transactions, because it acts as a contract. As a consumer you can easily get away with using electronic or credit/debit transactions for almost everything. However, some transactions over $5-10k are worth using checks. If you get a car loan, you don't need a check, but if you pay "cash" then a check is most likely preferred by you and the dealer. For house down payments, cash is illegal (note that it says DEBTS public and private) in the US, but checks are accepted and ACH/wire transfers are most common.

By using a check and filling in the note properly you can create a legal requirement that a service or product be delivered on payment (which is different from asking for your money back from a bank or card company through their resolution procedure), if you need to go to court.

I'm sure there's a grandma out there using checks at the grocery store, but it's quite rare. And except for very small grocery purchases ($1-5) cash is pretty rare too.

Japan seems like the most culturally cash based (and China the least) place I've been. Europe and US are in the middle. South America may still be fairly cash based, but I haven't visited recently.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by phist_mcgee on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:51AM (#32353415)
I think that's a solution looking for a problem.

Payment via bank transfer is also a contract, the dispute resolution is no different. I don't see how a promise note on a piece of paper somehow protects you better than an electronic transfer that is visible to you, the other party, the bank, and to authorities.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by qabqabaca on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:16AM (#32353589)
Agree. It's like Stockholm Syndrome. It comes across the same as when someone from the US tries to argue that putting the month before the day actually makes sense in dates because then the max values go from lowest to highest (12/31/9999+).
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by alexvoda on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:48AM (#32353804)
That is the perfect moment to mention ISO 8601 and RFC 3339.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by pooper on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:01AM (#32353917)
I started using 8601 without even thinking about it for one simple reason. Alphabetical sorting just works with YYYYmmdd

So for example, log20220804.txt

https://xkcd.com/1179/

At the very least, use four digit years, not 22 for 2022.

> ISO 8601 was published on 06/05/88 and most recently amended on 12/01/04.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by smdyc1 on Friday August 05, 2022 @07:11AM (#32354451)
I've been using that format too for the same reason, without knowing about 8601. Day/Month/Year is great for a person (I'm in Aus) since we, as human beings, intrinsically know what year it is, and probably know what month it is if we haven't been on a bender. But string sorting is so much easier using yyyyMMdd format.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by sneak on Friday August 05, 2022 @10:03AM (#32356235)
yyyymmdd is incorrect, as pointed out explicitly in the xkcd you linked.

The format is yyyy-mm-dd.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by mvid on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:37PM (#32379163)
US and non-US date styles are equally wrong. It’s just personal preference or what you are used to. The only “correct” option would be Year Month Day, and the only argument that needs to be made for is look at how your clock arranges time, or how you write it down.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by aceofspades19 on Friday August 05, 2022 @07:22AM (#32354540)
How is the dispute resolution process different with a cheque vs other forms of payment? What do you have to put in the note line that makes this legal requirement? and how is this different than a regular sales contract? I don't know what you would buy for $5k+ that doesn't already have some sort of sales contract which would be legally binding. It's not like you can show up to a dealership with $20k in cash and just drive a car off the lot without signing anything.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by bern4444 on Friday August 05, 2022 @09:26AM (#32355797)
I hate using checks. I have little trust in a flimsy piece of paper that you often have to mail to be the method of transaction.

It boggles my mind how checks are still so prevalent. When we have tools like Venmo, Zelle, ACH Transfers, Apple Pay etc.

The few times I've had to use a check (and a cashiers check at that) its been to sign a new lease on an apartment and it is one of the most nerve-racking days I have.

I would absolutely prefer to transact exclusively through digital transfers of any kind.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by wink on Friday August 05, 2022 @08:04AM (#32354904)
> I'm sure there's a grandma out there using checks at the grocery store

Someone living in San Francisco excitedly! told me just 1-3 years ago that they could now use some 'photograph your check' feature on their mobile - not 100% sure where the checks were used, but said person was not used to using checks where they came from.. sounds kinda widespread.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by anyfoo on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:04PM (#32361300)
I still pay my rent every month per check, and only per check (the landlord insists, I don't mind). I also do occasionally receive checks for very insignificant amounts of money in the mail, e.g. few cents back from insurance or stuff like that. That's always a bit funny.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by rufus_foreman on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:48PM (#32362357)
>> And except for very small grocery purchases ($1-5) cash is pretty rare too

Not in my neighborhood. Only half of the self-checkout machines take cash and there is often a long line for the ones that take cash while some of the ones that only take cards sit unused.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by bluedino on Friday August 05, 2022 @08:10AM (#32354946)
Most grandmas are still writing checks for groceries. It's also not uncommon for people 50+ to 'not trust' debit cards, ATM's, etc as well.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by LinuxBender on Friday August 05, 2022 @08:36AM (#32355196)
I am in that group but for me it is less about biological age and more about experience.

I have had many experiences with ATM's and ATM networks being offline. Card processors being DDoS'd while I was trying to buy something at the store. Card terminals being hacked and "offline for maintenance". Card terminals offline but nobody knows why. Many of the card terminals here are dirty and won't read the chip. It is not my card, many people have these problems. I have to explain how to clean the readers to the clerks and their managers. When traveling cross-country this is not just an inconvenience, it is a road-trip stopper unless one has cash. Cash does not go offline.

3 days ago I had to help a friend that was stuck at the store with no cash and their card was not working. Their account was fine but the card system was offline for unknown reasons. I gave them cash and we were on our way. Now they know to keep cash on them.

Adding to this is the way ACH/wire transfers work gives me exactly zero confidence in the banking system. Sure, I might be able to eventually get my money back. Banks have the security of a high-school locker sitting in a dark alley as very little information about me is required to empty an account with zero interaction on my part. This information is leaked by online websites from every sector all the time. I just use banks as a small caching/broker system for online transactions and I watch my accounts like a hawk. If banks want to hold more money they need to entirely redesign that system and I know I am definitely not alone in this way of thinking and it isn't just people age 50+. Many in the hacker communities that work for banks are also aware of their vulnerabilities. I was part of that community when I worked for a bank.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by grecy on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:30AM (#32352873)
>I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques.

Banking in the US is like going back in time 20 years. Even when I flew through Dallas and LAX during the height of COVID I had to hand my credit card over for someone to swipe, then pickup a pen that thousands of others had touched to sign a piece of paper. I've been tapping to pay exclusively for years and forgot about all that ancient stuff.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by jltsiren on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:31AM (#32353288)
I think that backwardness is now a thing of the past.

Most developed countries I'm familiar with made cheap/free wire transfers the most fundamental banking product decades ago. The change was driven by the banks, because handling checks was expensive and there was too much fraud involved. The US never made the change, probably because there were too many banks that could not agree on anything. That doesn't matter much anymore, because online card payments and ACH transfers (which are technically not wire transfers) are prevalent.

Another thing that contributes to the perception of backwardness is that American credit card issuers never adopted chip and PIN like the rest of the developed world. Elsewhere, banks wanted to reduce fraud and accepted the need to remember PINs as a small price for that. In the US, banks could afford more fraud due to higher fees, and they chose convenience instead. But today, cards have chips without a PIN anyway, and swiping is used mostly as a rare fallback mechanism. And apps such as Apple Pay and Google Pay (or whatever it's called this week) are quickly removing the need for physical cards.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by danaris on Friday August 05, 2022 @11:48AM (#32357842)
> I think that backwardness is now a thing of the past.

It's really not.

Just the other day, I had to pay for gas at a station that still used swipe rather than chip, and then ate at an outdoor café where I had to give my card to the server, who took it away and brought back a sheet to sign and a pen.

A lot of places are updating to handle chip and tap-to-pay, which is great, but until swipe entry is completely obsoleted and non-portable terminals for restaurants are banned by the payment processors, there will still be some who hold on because that's what they have and what they know.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by mdp2021 on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:50AM (#32353409)
> then pickup a pen that thousands of others had touched

Bring your own pen. It is presumed that you bring around a few essentials.

Edit: on the other hand (pun unintended), some operations of electronic money transfer here require people signing on tablets through pens that are of common use and will more hardly be replaced by an owned item.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by phist_mcgee on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:52AM (#32353428)
"Essentials"

Much of the western world is near-digital at this point.

I handwrite things so rarely these days that my handwriting has reverted back to year 6 level.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by mdp2021 on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:00AM (#32353492)
> Much of the western world [...] // I ... so rarely these days that ... reverted back to year 6 level

Don't blame it on the "West". I have rights to blame my rage on the "west". There are no rights to blame what you are not forced to (in this case, e.g. that you abandoned doing math and solving through state-of-the-art "wits hand stick and surface").

Nonetheless, we were talking about signatures.

> «Essentials»

With «essentials» of course I meant something that you carry around because you know you may need it owing to the environment - not a absolute personal need (as in "I will take notes"), but a relative contextual need (as in "either I bring mine or I will have to share").

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by kurthr on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:40AM (#32352930)
Wow, that's pretty rare. TTP and chip are basically required now. Unless your card fails, I don't know many places that would have desire or even equipment to swipe. Even square doesn't do it now.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by refurb on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:00AM (#32353906)
I assume you're using a foreign credit card? I haven't signed for a credit card transaction in close to decade.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by twobitshifter on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:58AM (#32354339)
Even at restaurants? You don’t have them bring you the bill, you put your card in and then they bring you back the paper to fill out for the tip and sign? there are some places where they stand at your table and wait for you to punch in a tip, but that’s rare.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by MomoXenosaga on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:14AM (#32353577)
Yes COVID for me was the final push to go completely cashless.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by csomar on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:54AM (#32353025)
Most places in the US accept Apple Pay now. I think it's harsh to judge the whole country based on a few exceptions. The US is also huge which means some people are going to stick to the old way of doing things.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by collegeburner on Friday August 05, 2022 @08:17AM (#32355023)
Uhh no that is not true in lots of places. Probably highly region and demographic dependent tho. Also apple pay alone is not a solution, no way am i paying for some overpriced iphone bc "oh were cashless now and only take apple pay".
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by alx__ on Friday August 05, 2022 @02:29AM (#32352485)
> anyone can have a bank account with no fees, no matter how spotty your previous track record.

We're still working on that idea :(

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by EdwardDiego on Friday August 05, 2022 @02:32AM (#32352504)
Yeah, it was realised that a bank of last resort was needed.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by animal531 on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:58AM (#32353476)
Many countries in Africa are probably leading the way. Central and up uses phones as a virtual card, they send cash around with their phones using different types of sms/digital technologies.

In the south such as South Africa a lot of people have some form of bank card (apart from the people on the very bottom of society). As such those people on the bottom are affected by being cashless, because for example people might no longer carry around cash to hand out to the needy on street corners etc.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by starkd on Friday August 05, 2022 @08:25AM (#32355100)
Sure, it's convenient for now. You never know what turn society is going to take somewhere down the line. The government is in a much better position to dictate rules for all of your commerce. Whether that happens in a few years or decades from now is anybody's guess, but the temptation to excercise that power is all the more likely.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by EdwardDiego on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:25PM (#32362686)
I'll let you know when New Zealand becomes a dictatorship, I guess.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by inkblotuniverse on Saturday August 06, 2022 @05:19AM (#32366413)
It was pretty authoritarian over the course of the last two years!
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by EdwardDiego on Saturday August 06, 2022 @08:34PM (#32372825)
No it wasn't, not sure why people keep choosing to believe that when Kiwis keep correcting them.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by starkd on Saturday August 06, 2022 @11:12PM (#32373549)
There is such a thing as "soft tyranny". It can be just as insidious and demoralizing to individual rights as a hard tyranny.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by MomoXenosaga on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:12AM (#32353563)
Same situation in the Netherlands. I have a 20 euro bill in my wallet for emergencies when the electronic payment system is down.

I think 70% of transactions are electronic these days.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by refurb on Friday August 05, 2022 @05:58AM (#32353881)
Just like cash, people ignore the benefits of checks.

I remember buying a house and receiving about 3 notices of rampant wire fraud when you send closing costs. Realtors or even worse title organizations and crappy security meant you needed to double, triple check the wire details, because once you send that money - it's gone.

Instead of that silly game, I went to bank, got a draft made out to the title company, and stay with me here hand delivered the check. No worries if some Russian criminal org stole my money or if they go it in the end.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by ra120271 on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:30AM (#32354118)
In the UK when you set up bank transfer the legal entity names are verified and displayed back tot he user and asked to be matched. This helps reduce wrong account detail transfers. Not full proof but does help.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by JumpCrisscross on Friday August 05, 2022 @06:24AM (#32354080)
> I went to bank, got a draft made out to the title company, and stay with me here hand delivered the check

You could do the same, except with your bank on the phone while the title agency reads out wire instructions. Hell, you could bring your banker.

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by refurb on Friday August 05, 2022 @08:34PM (#32363607)
How do I know the bank is talking to the real title company? Hackers have been know to put fake numbers in emails.

Will they pay me back if the money is sent to the wrong place? Probably not.

[dead]
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by rjbwork on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:19AM (#32352803)
Not an appropriate comment for HN. You should read the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by 16amxn16 on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:27AM (#32352849)
I know the guidelines. I decided to break them to get my point across, at the cost of this throwaway.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by rjbwork on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:40AM (#32352934)
Except you haven't really to almost anyone because now your comments are flagged dead and most people don't have showdead on.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by 16amxn16 on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:46AM (#32352967)
>and most people don't have showdead on.

Well, that's on them. Lots of valuable comments get flagged.

You have a point though. If snobbery and walking in eggshells is what's valued here, why waste my time?

Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by soco on Friday August 05, 2022 @04:24AM (#32353232)
Walking on eggshells is what built the human society since like forever. You can complain about fantasy wokeism online as much as you like, but in the real world a comment like the above would have gotten you punched in every corner of the world.
Re:What is the cost of a cashless society? by 16amxn16 on Saturday August 06, 2022 @01:30AM (#32365109)
>but in the real world a comment like the above would have gotten you punched in every corner of the world.

Of course not.