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Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by BeetleB on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:01PM (#32325398)
Exactly - all these articles about CEO compensation are misleading.

Case in point: Intel's CEO's 2021 salary was reported as almost $180M. In reality, he got only about $10M. He hit literally none of the targets that would allow him to get the rest of the compensation (although in theory he has a few years to hit those targets).

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by kemitchell on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:36PM (#32325694)
It’s case by case. I have seen some accurate CEO comp headlines. Some publications certainly bat better than others.

As for Intel: $10m a year is still a lot of money.

I have also heard that targets are occasionally hit. ;-D

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by pc86 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:57PM (#32325892)
> $10m a year is still a lot of money

In absolute terms, 100% yes it is.

In "CEO of a major corporation most people in the world have heard about," it's basically nothing.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:16PM (#32326063)
Not scientific and maybe inaccurate, but a quick Google search showed the average Intel employee makes $100k. The shift in social norms where 100x the average employee (of a tech firm, which skews towards high salaries) is considered “basically nothing” is something worth talking about.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:30PM (#32326176)
Intel employs 121k people.

If you're in charge of managing 121k people - 10x the average salary seems like a minimum. 100x seems in the realm of reasonable.

If the CEO's salary is distributed to all employees, they would get a ~0.05% raise. If distributed to the shareholders, it would increase profits by ~0.01%.

Yet this person's decisions can have much bigger consequences to both employees and shareholders.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:21PM (#32326537)
The thing is, they aren’t actively managing 121k people anymore than the President is commanding 1MM+ troops. Nobody is capable of actually managing that scope. In reality, they are managing a handful who are also managing a handful who are also managing a handful etc. If you disagree, ask yourself if they could intelligently describe a randomly selected employees day-to-day duties. If they can’t, they aren’t really managing them in a meaningful way.

I agree they manage the strategic vision of the company. The research on whether they make a real difference in the long term trajectory seems mixed.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by deaddodo on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:05PM (#32326429)
> If you're in charge of managing 121k people - 10x the average salary seems like a minimum. 100x seems in the realm of reasonable.

Except, that’s not a CEO’s job. Even remotely. At best they “manage” a few department heads who each manage a few middle managers who each manage a few direct managers who then manage the workforce.

Even then, that’s a misrepresentation however. They are in charge of managing and directing overall company strategy in the interests of the board. The COO (and, sometimes, the CTO; in tech firms) is usually (indirectly) in charge of managing people.

I think it’s a valid point that they bring large value to a corporation, but it would be very difficult to quantify that value to be anywhere near 100x any other non-Csuite employee.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:07PM (#32326442)
It's more difficult to justify to shareholders paying less, tbh.

The risks of a bad CEO are enormous.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by deaddodo on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:15PM (#32326506)
And yet, CEOs for decades (the 50s-80s) did just fine at a fraction of wealth disparity compared to today [1]. In fact, in just the last three years; the overall disparity has increased 31% despite corporations failing to properly manage the pandemic or their workforces.

1 - https://www.forbes.com/sites/annefield/2022/05/23/ceo-worker...

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by BeetleB on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:41PM (#32326667)
> And yet, CEOs for decades (the 50s-80s) did just fine at a fraction of wealth disparity compared to today [1].

And yet, SW professionals did just fine for decades when making anywhere from a quarter to a third of today's FAANG salaries (inflation adjusted).

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:57PM (#32326746)
It’s a reasonable point. But I think the distinction is SW wasn’t creating the economic value it does now. Similar to why firmware jobs don’t pay FAANG type salaries, the scale of economic impact isn’t there. (Not to be confused with societal impact).

So the question becomes, are CEOs pay commensurate with their added value? Put differently, is the rise in production mainly attributable to the CEO (as wages were largely stagnant prior to 2020, yet CEO wages increased rather dramatically.) Are they adding more value now than they did before and, if so, can we actually measure it?

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by deaddodo on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @10:32PM (#32326967)
SWE (and many professional/“white color”) salaries have been stagnant for a decade and a half. In fact, the overall average has been on the decline.

Try again.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by pc86 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @10:52PM (#32327092)
You can make your point (even a bad one, like this) without being snide.

Do you have a source supporting your comment that SWE comp in 2005 was the same as it is today?

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by deaddodo on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @11:04PM (#32327168)
Considering I’m the only one that has sourced anything in this thread and that the response I was responding to made an easily disproven claim in such a snide/sarcastic manner, it’s hard not to respond in kind.

But sure, from a super simple query on any search engine:

https://insights.dice.com/2018/02/09/tech-pro-jobs-pay-2018/

Feel free to gate your query to anytime between 2003ish to now, the results are all the same with a few exceptions (MLE and DeFi jobs, for instance): stagnant or decreasing.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by cudgy on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @01:58AM (#32328135)
SWE’s straight out of school made 90-100k in the late 90’s. Isn’t that what they make now?
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by BeetleB on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @01:13PM (#32334383)
> SWE’s straight out of school made 90-100k in the late 90’s.

They absolutely did not with just a BS. Perhaps a few companies paid that high, but 100K would be an easy outlier.

To give you an idea, even in 2010 most non-big names outside of SV and Seattle paid under $100K right out of school. Many companies in my city were offering $70-80K. Even my big name company paid under $100K in those days.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @08:25AM (#32330761)
I think the more accurate measure is the median salary. It’s not that high now and probably wasnt back then either.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by cudgy on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @12:09PM (#32333577)
I’d agree that these salaries are roughly the same if not less, adjusted for inflation, regardless of the actual number.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @12:43PM (#32333997)
I was curious so I looked into it a bit.

According to BLS data [1], the median computer scientist salary in 1997 was $82k, adjusted for inflation [2]. The same data has software developers median salary today at $121k. It seems SWE are getting paid much, much better today.

Granted, the occupation titles don't align perfectly. There was no "software developer" role in the 1997 dataset, but most of the computer science positions have a median salary in the low $80k-range in todays dollars. Also note that the timeframe you chose was at the peak of a tech bubble. Probably not the best for comparison, just like you wouldn't want to use 2006 or 2021 for a gauge on housing costs.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/tables.htm

[2] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @10:49PM (#32327077)
Corporate profits are up way more than 31% in that time. So the impact to shareholders is larger.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @08:31AM (#32330816)
Relevant to this thread, Robinhood numbers are way down yet the CEO still made significant salary by historical comparison. To me, that points more to a change in social norms than in productivity.

But you bring up an interesting point. The CEO may be incentivized to promote wealth disparity. If they are measured by profitability only, without regard to the larger systemic effects, it incentivizes them to take a myopic view. This could mean implementing policies that help hit short term targets without regard to long term health, suppressing wages, etc.

To a certain extent, whichever side we’re on is really just a narrative we tell ourselves since there doesn’t seem to be conclusive data about CEO impact.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:23PM (#32326547)
The research is a bit mixed on whether a CEO of a large corporation (S&P 500 size) really matters so I’m not sure the risk statement can be said with conviction.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by cudgy on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @01:53AM (#32328114)
Meh … just like the President … a CEO’s performance is highly correlated to business cycles and stages of a company’s growth. Most of the decisions made are not earth-shattering; they go through the motions and hire the same contractors and make the same decisions that most of their competitor company CEO’s make … after all most of them went to the same business schools and learned the same “cutting edge” business tactics from the same professors.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by sumedh on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:31PM (#32326606)
> is considered “basically nothing” is something worth talking about.

Except if the CEO screws up the company goes bankrupt and people lose their jobs. Look at Nokia and RIM.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by cudgy on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @02:03AM (#32328152)
Nokia and RIM got clocked by the iPhone. I don’t care who their CEO could have been, these companies were on the downward trend and headed for tough times.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by sumedh on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @04:55AM (#32329279)
> these companies were on the downward trend and headed for tough times.

Exactly why you need a good CEO at the top to understand that the landscape has changed with a new competitor but Nokia and RIM failed to adapt.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @08:35AM (#32330856)
What about CEOs like Jack Welch, who everyone lauded as a paragon of management? He was handsomely paid but his decisions crippled the company years later because of bad foresight? I think the main issue ITT is that it’s very hard to measure and distinguish a good CEO from a bad one, yet they are almost all paid as if they are great leaders.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by sumedh on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @08:46AM (#32330955)
> yet they are almost all paid as if they are great leaders.

The board of directors are the ones who measure CEO performance and set compensation but most of the times they just rubber stamp whatever the CEO does.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by bumby on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @08:54AM (#32331047)
One of the criticisms is that the boards are incestuous. Another issue may be that stock options are much more common now. I know the argument is this should align the CEOs interest with the shareholders but the counterpoint is it incentivizes a short term outlook.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by paulryanrogers on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:27PM (#32326154)
> In "CEO of a major corporation most people in the world have heard about," it's basically nothing.

Perhaps CEO pay is beyond the pale generally, and these are obscene expectations.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by pc86 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @10:53PM (#32327106)
Certainly a point worth making, and I might even be inclined to agree, but I think my point stands. Comparing against similarly noteworthy companies, Intel's CEO doesn't make all that much.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by groby_b on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:33PM (#32325682)
To be fair, if I could get paid $10M for not hitting any of my goals, I sure wouldn't complain.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by dylan604 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:08PM (#32325997)
To be fair, I don't think the CEO is complaining either
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by drunkpotato on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:55PM (#32326737)
He doesn't even pay people to complain for him, they're so deluded they do it for free.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by hosh on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:01PM (#32326408)
That speaks to another point though -- the incentive to return shareholder value, often times to the detriment to the company, the employees, the customers, and sometimes to public safety.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by just_boost_it on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:47PM (#32326692)
Well, the shareholders provided the money that allows any of it to exist at all. If there's was nothing flowing back, there'd be nothing for institutional investors. IPOs would be worthless which means there'd be no exit for VCs. Everyone would love to just get money with no obligation to give anything back, but that's not the way the world works.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by hosh on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @12:49AM (#32327774)
The idea that companies should maximize return on shareholder value has only been around since around the late 70s. It wasn’t always like that.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by actually_a_dog on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:24PM (#32326137)
"Only $10M." Right. In a country where the median full time, year round worker makes $56k per year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by blargey on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:49PM (#32326323)
In more hackernewsian terms, $10 million sitting in an investment account will outearn most software developers.

Their salary has a higher salary than you.

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by procavia on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:28PM (#32326584)
> Their salary has a higher salary than you.

I’m stealing this line

Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by sooheon on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:11PM (#32326473)
That's a hilarious way to put it, thanks.
Re:Robinhood lays off 23% of staff by cudgy on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @01:47AM (#32328076)
Only 10M to fail to meet any benchmarks? Now that is a nice performance plan … for the CEO!