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Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by yuan43 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @10:00AM (#32318564)
> As several of these statements blatantly contradict one another, I went back to the data and ran the same sanity check that I did with Facebook above. In other words, what if Google is using the hiring freeze as a smoke screen and only continuing with the strongest candidates, while keeping the rest on the bench?

An actual hiring freeze sends a very strong negative signal to employees and investors. To employees it says "the ship is sinking." Layoffs are right around the corner and that is absolute poison to morale. To investors it says "technical or not, we've hit a recession." Brace yourselves for impact. Google and Facebook are both advertising companies, so they are tightly coupled to the business cycle. When business spending starts to falter, they'll feel it first. And they have.

So it's not surprising that the companies themselves are far from clear about this, sending mixed messages. I expect them to continue to do so for as long as they possibly can.

The bubble has inflated so far for so long, I get the sense that even among cynical young employees and "investors" there's a sense of permanence in the positions of both companies. The thing is, those with fewer than 10 years experience have never seen the ferocity of the other side of the business cycle. When it turns, that mofo turns. Those in top management positions have seen it, and they're going to do everything in their ability to deny and evade it.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by ekidd on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @12:58PM (#32321254)
> The thing is, those with fewer than 10 years experience have never seen the ferocity of the other side of the business cycle. When it turns, that mofo turns.

I was working as a programmer during both the dotcom crash and the 2007-2008 real estate crash. I would describe these downturns as "bumpy".

But neither was catastrophic for most of the programmers I knew. Some of us moved, others found new jobs. Some of the least-skilled, including the "webmasters" who didn't know JavaScript or CSS, did wind up leaving the industry in 2001.

If you had a 1-year emergency fund, you would probably have been fine in either crash. The people who were the hardest hit were actually the people living in major tech cities, because they had the biggest concentrations of layoffs. The longest I was on the job market was about 3 months in fall 2001, but I had to move out of Boston. I got a slightly underpaid but really awesome job.

Right now, there are tens of thousands of organizations that would be revolutionized by some simple custom software. These organizations can't compete with FAANG salaries. But they'll be happy to absorb quite a few programmers. Some of the jobs will be valuable and interesting work.

So like I said, a hard crash can be bumpy. But for most professional programmers, it probably won't be catastrophic.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by spookie on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @04:01PM (#32323557)
I don't know about the big boys. But at least in Europe, in 2008, the crash wasn't "bumpy". It was survival of the fittest, and most up and coming companies straight up died. It's a matter of perspective, for sure. But I would be careful myself. FAANGs won't vanish, and it won't be catastrophic for the privileged few. But, for the rest of the world, which follows the status quo? This spells doom in various levels.
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by ekidd on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:25PM (#32326563)
> It was survival of the fittest, and most up and coming companies straight up died.

Oh, during the dotcom crash, Internet companies failed by the thousands in the US. But many of them were absolute garbage companies, far worse than the average modern startup. Frankly, scam companies were coming out of the woodwork. It was even worse than the later mobile/social/local/GroupOn era.

But just because many companies folded, it didn't necessarily mean that competent programmers were out of work indefinitely. There was a period of about 6 months when getting hired was nearly impossible, but after that, things started to turn slowly upward.

Honestly, if you're a programmer, I really recommend an emergency fund. Especially if you're being paid ridiculously well, keep your living expenses lower, and put some money aside.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by SauciestGNU on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:51PM (#32326335)
Oh man I worked briefly with someone who was one of those webmaster/VBS jockeys. It was 10-12 years after the dotcom bust and the guy was doing Tier 2 desktop support at a non-technical megacorp. The people who got hit in that bust really got hit, but you have to wonder how much of that was due to not continuously learning and evolving skills.
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by aksjdhmkjasdof on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @12:30PM (#32320836)
>An actual hiring freeze sends a very strong negative signal to employees and investors. To employees it says "the ship is sinking." Layoffs are right around the corner and that is absolute poison to morale.

I don't agree with this analysis. I'd be shocked if Google did any layoffs (though it's always possible) instead of just freezing hiring and letting natural attrition happen for a while. As for the signal to employees, there are so many employees already that I imagine many would be agree that the company is too big. It doesn't mean that the ship is sinking, just that they don't need an infinite number of employees. And Google's products are so dominant that you can't really believe the business is failing.

Now, FB on the other hand... I'd feel a lot more antsy, yeah. Their business doesn't feel nearly so stable.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by baby on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @01:30PM (#32321750)
FB is still printing money so I'm not sure how it's not a stable business
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by aksjdhmkjasdof on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:53PM (#32325867)
It's certainly stable for now but it doesn't feel as stable as Google's, at least to me. The main FB product is in a slow decline and IG, though doing well, is under constant threat from the latest social media app du jour. The whole VR push could work out but right now it feels like a long shot and if I were working there I wouldn't be happy betting the farm on it. I mean the very fact that they are anticipating such a drastic pivot to their core business in the future should surely be a cause for some concern.
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by pharmakom on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @01:57PM (#32322130)
zuck will burn cash to the end for the meta verse it seems.
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by Applejinx on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @02:05PM (#32322222)
That's one of the things, though. If you are in a dire situation, like companies nationalized during wartime, you can't work or function. Certain things like advertising your services are clearly out the window.

In WWII, some companies who were turned to serving the war machine continued to advertise the things they couldn't make or sell, anyway. When things came back those folks were on top of the world. If the big FAANG companies can ride out business cycles without acting like they've become vulnerable, they're likely to further cement their positions.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by baby on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:40PM (#32324621)
It definitely is a long term bet that could end up costing a lot to Meta, but on the other hand if that bet materializes... At the very least we're getting really cool VR development!
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by nomel on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @11:55AM (#32320318)
> To employees it says "the ship is sinking." Layoffs are right around the corner and that is absolute poison to morale. To investors it says "technical or not, we've hit a recession." Brace yourselves for impact

While it’s possibly true in this case, that’s definitely not always true. I’ve been in two companies that had to implement a hiring freeze because growth was too fast. Everyone understood, because nobody new each other, because half the company was just hired.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by unicornmama on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @12:18PM (#32320654)
Layoffs can be positively received by the market if it cuts the fat to increase profit. No one expects Google or any other company to grow unboundedly.
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by efsavage on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:47PM (#32324695)
Two things that I can say with certainty I've heard literally every single one of the ~25 years I've been in this game:

1. "We're in a bubble!, it's only a matter of time before it all comes down" 2. "The market is hot for developers right now!"

I've been through hiring sprees and layoffs, I've had startups succeed and fail, and I don't think my experiences are exceptional in any way. Things wax and wane, trends come and go. Keep a bit of savings, live within your means, and do good work and things will most likely work out well for you in the long run.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by time_to_smile on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @12:21PM (#32320711)
> the business cycle

Just an aside, that this rebranding of Marx's theory of crisis never fails to get a chuckle out of me.

In mainstream economics is presented as some magical property of the way economies work, where Marx specifically predicts cyclically economic crisis created by contradictions inherent in the structure of capitalism, the periodically build to a tipping point leading to crisis and ultimately the resolution of these contradictions.

For Marx, these crises ultimately culminate in the unavoidable collapse of capitalism. Which is where the fundamental drive to find alternatives to capitalism comes from for Marx, not because it is an ethically questionable system, but because it is one fundamentally headed towards its own destruction.

But "business cycle" sounds much better, and leaves off all that spooky "systemic problem" stuff.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by alecbz on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @01:30PM (#32321755)
> For Marx, these crises ultimately culminate in the unavoidable collapse of capitalism.

But I mean that's exactly the whole difference, right? Both Marx and others identified this pattern, Marx believes this ultimately will explode, others don't, so it makes sense that others would want to label it in a way that indicates their view that the pattern is "normal" and sustainable.

I'm not even saying Marx is wrong, but just because Marx thought something about something he noticed doesn't mean he's right. Others that came after him are allowed to come to different conclusions about the things he noticed.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by vidarh on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @02:21PM (#32322420)
One thing worth remembering, and that even a lot of socialists forget, is that Marx predicted this not out of some deep hate for capitalism.

The first half of the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto is Marx being a total fanboy for capitalism and it's capacity for transforming the world.

Marx predicted that capitalist competition, which he expressed admiration for, would be too successful, and that people would just fail to reign it in and deal with the result.

There's a conceptually very simple fix to the crises Marx predicted if he's otherwise right:

Share more of the value, and spread labour around if automation comes to reduce the need for labour to the extent he predicted, where, to paraphrase, both overproduction and lack of work becomes common.

It doesn't take equality to prevent it, just enough adjustment to smooth out the crises enough to prevent escalation.

Marx took capitalists own predictions about the efficiency of capitalist competition at face value, and simply asked what will happen if capitalism eventually runs out of new markets to expand into (temporarily or permanently) and responds by driving down margins, and his prediction of eventual revolution is predicated on the assumption that society will fail to apply those very simple fixes.

Ironically, then, if capitalism survives, it might be because the competitive pressures are not as strong as Marx believed.

Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by tcmart14 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:50PM (#32324722)
This is where I think people try to pull 'gotchas' on Marx because Capitalism hasn't reached the point of bursting yet. I don't necessarily think he was wrong, nor right. The reality, the persistence of capitalism will happen so long as people/systems are willing to be flexible enough to "resolve the current set of contradictions." Now, those resolution's sometimes don't remain resolved because many of us have the memory of a goldfish when it comes to economics. But as long as people who have the powers to make the calls are willing to bend over backwards enough (even temporarily), capitalism won't cease.
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by cloverich on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @12:41PM (#32321005)
FWIW i first learned of it from a libertarian angle, which equated business cycle with economy wide (mal) investment which was, in practice, usually driven by the fed or some comparable government program. Whether consistent or not it holds at least some truth and was an interesting angle to start learning about economics.
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by smokeypanda on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @04:47PM (#32324108)
Libertarianism and Austrian economics has a perception of outright rejecting empiricism and other rational thought, so I'd like to add a clarification. Libertarian theory doesn't deny naturally occurring downturns in economies, but that the severity and length of them are lessened without state mismanagement. Potentially, to the point that nation-spanning busts would be a thing of the past.
Re:What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? by robertlagrant on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @04:20PM (#32323785)
> But "business cycle" sounds much better, and leaves off all that spooky "systemic problem" stuff.

It all sounds better than his "mass murder/starvation death" systemic problems.