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Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by Nition on Sunday July 17, 2022 @03:59PM (#32130622)
I have to say, it seems ridiculous that we're at the point where people are dying in Europe this week from a heatwave exacerbated by climate change, and we're not even implementing basic measures like this yet.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by gruez on Sunday July 17, 2022 @04:02PM (#32130667)
How much contribution does "electronics with non-replaceable batteries" add to climate change? 10%? 1%? 0.1%? Bringing this up when talking about climate change is like bringing up plastic straws bans in first world countries when talking about microplastic pollution (ie. ignoring the fact that half of microplastics in the ocean comes from fishing gear).
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by ornornor on Sunday July 17, 2022 @04:20PM (#32130823)
You’ve got to start somewhere though. And anywhere is marginally better than nowhere. As opposed to throwing your arms up in the air saying “it’s pointless we should be doing something else instead so let’s do nothing at all”. That’s exactly what the industry is aiming for, learned helplessness.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by kortilla on Sunday July 17, 2022 @08:30PM (#32133116)
>And anywhere is marginally better than nowhere.

Nope, this is completely wrong. People want to help but they have limited bandwidth. When you give them someway they can feel like they are helping without meaningfully doing anything, you’ve reduced their attention/effort that will go into real solutions.

Doing minuscule shit is absolutely harmful to the cause. This is one of those areas where a compromise is as bad as doing nothing with the additional downside of patting yourself on the back thinking you made progress.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by dotancohen on Sunday July 17, 2022 @11:46PM (#32134415)
I know a woman who regularly drives almost an hour round trip to the recycling center for plastics, as our village does not have plastic recycling bins. She's certain that she is doing her part, and absolutely does not want to hear that recycling plastic emits more CO2 than creating new plastic, nevermind the fuel she's burned.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by earth_walker on Monday July 18, 2022 @12:43AM (#32134759)
Though driving an hour to recycle a few plastic bottles is obviously bonkers, I do want to point out that there are more reasons to recycle than just reducing CO2.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by dotancohen on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:45AM (#32135103)
Yes, but the immediate threat to humanity is atmospheric CO2. Not landfill space nor "running out of oil".
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by earth_walker on Monday July 18, 2022 @12:53PM (#32140441)
This isn't (just) about landfill space or resource availability.

It's a shame that a couple of generations have been led to believe that the only real environmental disaster is climate change. It's certainly a big and pressing one, but it's like we've all but forgotten the many other issues that our lifestyle of ready massive consumption has caused.

Some examples of other environmental impacts that 'reduce, reuse and recycle' helps with: the impact of mining and oilfield operations on the natural environment; heavy metals and other toxins in waterways from mining and badly managed landfills; microplastics in the ocean; acid rain from Nox/Sox emissions; many other forms of air pollution from the mining industry.

Just to name a few.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by DoingIsLearning on Monday July 18, 2022 @05:41AM (#32136295)
Technically it's more generally atmospheric 'green-house gases', of which CO2 is the one we produce massive amounts of.

Methane and Nitrous Oxide also play a massive role. We produce less of those mostly through gas leaks and shipping/diesel fuel but they are a lot worse than CO2 if we think of it in terms of per kilo impact.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by tsol on Sunday July 17, 2022 @04:51PM (#32131120)
My argument against minimally effective action is that it can make people feel like they did something significant, and therefore discourage further change. Those plastic straws effective function in our society isn't that it removes plastic waste, it just absolves us of responsibility by letting us say we tried
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by gruez on Sunday July 17, 2022 @05:04PM (#32131258)
Okay, but what makes you think that interventions like "forcing manufacturers to make electronics have replaceable batteries" are easier to implement than other interventions like "invest in renewable energy projects"? Taking the approach of jumping at every possible intervention that is vaguely relevant (eg. today it's batteries in electronics because of this thread, tomorrow it's banning single use plastics because of some thread about recycling being a lie) seems worse because there won't ever be enough political will/support to get any single project implemented.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by DoingIsLearning on Sunday July 17, 2022 @04:37PM (#32130971)
> That’s exactly what the industry is aiming for, learned helplessness.

I am wholely in agreement with you but there are some pretty big percentage wise holes that we need to plug.

Namely:

1. Getting ride of coal and Natural Gas power generation (which means replacing with renewables +storage, or fission, none of which are easily deployable)

2. Stopping methane leaks in Oil&Gas pipelines and active/decomissioned wells.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by Wowfunhappy on Sunday July 17, 2022 @07:53PM (#32132813)
No, you don't. You ought to start with the things that will yield the largest returns for your efforts. The lowest hanging fruit.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by GekkePrutser on Sunday July 17, 2022 @08:16PM (#32132999)
At the point we're at now where this crisis is already running out of control, we should do all fruits at the same time.

And of course we shouldn't just ban or tax disposable vapers. But all disposable electronics.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by nemothekid on Sunday July 17, 2022 @08:56PM (#32133288)
No, "starting small" and other consumer side activism are tools actively pushed by oil companies in order to make you believe you are making a difference; so that we don't pursue actual hard hitting legislation that regulate the oil industry.

Carnival Cruise's line of ships (which contain about 50 ships) contribute the same amount of emissions as all the cars in Europe. We could make the hard descision to regulate cruise ships away or maybe everyone in Europe could stop driving altogther

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by davewasthere on Sunday July 17, 2022 @10:25PM (#32133863)
How about get rid of one cruise ship, and maybe just the Italians stop driving? /j

Yeah, Cruise ships are pretty nuts!

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by exabrial on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:47PM (#32141061)
> And anywhere is marginally better than nowhere.

No. Stepping over dollars to pick up pennies is stupid.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by mrguyorama on Monday July 18, 2022 @02:40PM (#32141778)
The problem is a significant portion of people utterly refuse to say those dollars exist, or that they should be picked up.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by BurningFrog on Sunday July 17, 2022 @05:23PM (#32131446)
> * You’ve got to start somewhere though. And anywhere is marginally better than nowhere.*

These are the classical mistakes people make when optimizing software.

This way you end up spending a lot of effort to make your code 0.0012% faster.

I have no doubt this mistake will keep being made throughout all of human history.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by ta988 on Sunday July 17, 2022 @05:40PM (#32131647)
Except that software is usually few devs, lots of users. Here we are all contributors to the climate. So even if we all pick something different from our neighbor, changes can be made. Typical broken reasoning arising from comparing the way world works to software development.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by mlang79 on Monday July 18, 2022 @04:51AM (#32136016)
I wonder how much CO2 impact the CI revolution in open source really has. While I see how this is convenient, I sometimes wonder if we really need to spin up a 30min build for every PR/commit. I have never heard the community reflect on the impact it has with all the convenient cloud computing. Just spin up a ton of hosts to do your thing, yes? If you can pay for it, its OK? I guess owners of fossil-fuel consuming vehicles think the same. So, where are the environmental activists in the open source area pointing fingers at CI usage?
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by BurningFrog on Sunday July 17, 2022 @05:58PM (#32131796)
You still need to quantify what impact you have. Otherwise you can't tell grains of sand from mountains.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by davewasthere on Sunday July 17, 2022 @10:20PM (#32133835)
Just on microplastics, fishing gear isn't even a blip on microplastics in the ocean.

From Primary Microplastics in the Oceans: Boucher & Friot 2017

  35% Clothing and textiles
  28% Tyres
  24% City dust
  7% Road markings
  3.7% Marine coatings
  2% Beauty products
  <1% Plastic nurdles
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by gruez on Sunday July 17, 2022 @11:40PM (#32134370)
> Just on microplastics, fishing gear isn't even a blip on microplastics in the ocean.

My source is https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2018/08/Great-Pacific-Gar..., which in turn sources its data from https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-22939-w

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by Retric on Sunday July 17, 2022 @10:39PM (#32133954)
I have seen wildly different estimates for the origins of micro plastics from different studies.

The obvious issues are plastics breakdown at wildly different rates so the ratios of plastic pollution doesn’t match the ratios seen in the ocean. There are significant differences in where each type of plastic enters the ocean and where it ends up so sampling different parts of the ocean results in different observations. Finally sizes vary widely so measuring by volume, piece, or weight gives different results.

On top of this it’s not always easy to say the actual origin of a given piece was.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by pbhjpbhj on Sunday July 17, 2022 @04:48PM (#32131088)
As the aphorism goes "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

Seems like you'll only do things that make a significant contribution. Yes, with drinking straws it was a symbolic action, and yes you risk people thinking "ok, done it". But the current alternative is no action at all. We need to start, take the first small steps before chastising ourselves for not having gone any miles yet.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by BurningFrog on Sunday July 17, 2022 @05:26PM (#32131483)
> But the current alternative is no action at all

Most of the world is spending huge effort to decarbonize. May well not be enough, but it's very different from nothing.

I strongly recommend that, wherever you get your news from, try looking somewhere else!!

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by pbhjpbhj on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:19AM (#32138688)
Sorry, what else is being done about disposable electronics containing lithium cells? Could you recommend a news story (UK specific, preferably) with details of other projects in the context of the OP. Fwiw, I don't doubt that I'm not aware of every environmental project in this space. Thanks.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by BurningFrog on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:58PM (#32141231)
I'm talking about action to combat climate change.

If you're talking about the sub-sub-set of that which is disposable electronics containing lithium cells, we were talking past each other.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by gruez on Sunday July 17, 2022 @05:17PM (#32131389)
>But the current alternative is no action at all.

Why is there a dichotomy of "fund low impact project that's relevant to this thread" and "do nothing at all"?

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by pbhjpbhj on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:22AM (#32138731)
What's the currently presented third option for management of disposable electronics with lithium cells?
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by Schroedingersat on Sunday July 17, 2022 @08:51PM (#32133260)
Then the first step is one of transit/bike paths, removing beef and milk from your diet, or improving your insulation to at least rsi 5. Repairability is a major issue, but a minor tweak like that is a finger in the dam. More effective would be mandating schematics and extending default warranties to include third party repair for 5 years or so.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by jahewson on Sunday July 17, 2022 @04:25PM (#32130872)
Net zero means net zero. Batteries are going to be a huge part of our future and we need sustainable approaches to managing them right now and even more later.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by nonrandomstring on Sunday July 17, 2022 @06:28PM (#32132102)
Gerry McGovern's "World Wide Waste" (podcast, book and site) is a great place to start learning about the real impact of our electronic world on our environment.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by pojzon on Monday July 18, 2022 @03:23AM (#32135608)
Current situation requires changes of various sizes on all fronts.

It doesnt matter if its 0.1% or 10% -> we should fix all of those cases with sensible laws.

The goal is to reach that 90% in total.

Politics are just corrupted and lazy old farts.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by Nition on Sunday July 17, 2022 @04:43PM (#32131031)
What I mean is, certainly we need to make some huge changes, yet we're not even at the point of taking on these relatively straightforward ones.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by gruez on Sunday July 17, 2022 @05:13PM (#32131347)
This problem does not seem straightforward. Making have replaceable batteries and preserving their existing functionality (eg. thinness, water resistance) doesn't seem easy, nor does convincing the population to accept worse phones when most people are on a 2 year upgrade cycle.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by Nition on Sunday July 17, 2022 @05:21PM (#32131431)
If convincing people to not replace their phone every two years, or accept one that's a little thicker is too difficult, then I suspect we're in big trouble.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by gruez on Sunday July 17, 2022 @07:08PM (#32132453)
It's not really the cost, it's the cost/benefit ratio. I think most people would be on board with their sleek smartphones reverting to brickphones if it meant climate change was solved once and for all, but making the same sacrifice to reduce climate change by 0.1% would be a tough sell.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by kortilla on Sunday July 17, 2022 @08:25PM (#32133077)
Far more people die every day because of obesity caused diseases and we haven’t even meaningfully taxed high sugar foods.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by GekkePrutser on Sunday July 17, 2022 @08:15PM (#32132989)
I don't think disposable vapers are legal in Europe? I've never seen them, certainly not lying in the streets. At least here in Barcelona.

I know several people that vape but all of them use pretty nice reusable ones.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by soneil on Sunday July 17, 2022 @09:46PM (#32133604)
I'm in Ireland, they seem pretty popular here. Especially with those who are barely old enough to buy them.

Personally I'd be comfortable seeing them banned - for the same reason we banned the sale of individual cigarettes. Their only role in the market is to make addiction accessible at the lowest barrier to entry.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by detaro on Sunday July 17, 2022 @08:23PM (#32133056)
term to google/search on any social media site that has younger users: "elfbar". Disposable vapes very much exist.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by GekkePrutser on Sunday July 17, 2022 @09:09PM (#32133375)
Thanks, I see.. I've never seen those here in Barcelona. Only the refillable ones.

I hope they are banned. There is no reason for something like this to be disposable.

Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by zdragnar on Sunday July 17, 2022 @11:07PM (#32134148)
The reason they are disposable is people want them. There's no other reason for anything to be disposable.
Re:Picking up free lithium cells off the street and making t... by thesaintlives on Monday July 18, 2022 @04:18AM (#32135843)
Are they really dying or just getting a nice sun tan and eating ice cream? Is it climate change or summer?