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Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by rtkwe on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:06PM (#32073640)
> guaranteed 20 hours per week, need to be available for 40 hours per week

This I think is part of the huge problem with modern "low level"/minimum wage jobs. Companies don't pay enough to live of of one salary but expect to have full say over their employees time just for their own convenience in scheduling and staffing.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by elliekelly on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:26PM (#32074557)
When I worked in consulting we had a large retail client who had a lot of turn-over and was looking for ways to "stabilize" hiring. (Short of paying more money, of course!) When we looked into it their system was regularly over-scheduling shifts "just in case" there was a rush and then having store managers "cut" shifts if there wasn't a rush. There aren't a lot of surprise "rush" shifts in shopping malls outside of the holiday season so sometimes employees would come in, work an hour of a scheduled eight hour shift, and then get cut. The cuts tended to happen by "seniority" (so newest hires, paid the least) and a decent number of these employees who were frequently cut were traveling at least an hour by public transportation. Some days employees lost money by going to work.

We were thrilled by what we'd found! It would be a quick and easy fix for the client: they had solid and reliable sales forecasts for each location so estimating the number of employees they'd need on a given day wasn't going to be difficult. In fact, they were more or less already doing it. It would hardly cost them anything to implement aside from a few tweaks to the corporate scheduling tool and a bit of training for the store managers. So when management immediately shot down our proposed solution it came as a bit of shock. The erratic scheduling and the "cut" shifts were a feature, not a bug, we were told. It kept employees from getting a second job that they might dare prioritize over their current job.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by rtkwe on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:53PM (#32076175)
It's the kind of bullshit people got shot fighting against 100 years ago then we've slowly slid back over time to a different but still quite shitty place for workers. The labor movement in the US has unfortunately been neutered over time, maybe it'll make a come back now that it's becoming a bit more clear the US's fortune in the later 20th century might be more down to coming out of WW2 untouched rather than the glory and perfection of the US system.
[dead]
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by alsetmusic on Thursday July 14, 2022 @10:23AM (#32096435)
> why they're racist

You’re mad about the right thing (the system is rigged towards money controlling everything). Your anger has been directed in the wrong direction (immigrants, et al.).

This is a class issue. The affected classes are disproportionately weighted, but include everyone who isn’t at the top with working class laborers taking a significant brunt and undocumented immigrants getting massively exploited.

The system is doing what it was designed to do and it’s destroying itself from within.

The problem is the owners. Sowing distrust among affected groups is how they stymie class solidarity.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by throwawaylinux on Thursday July 14, 2022 @07:32PM (#32102632)
> Your anger has been directed in the wrong direction (immigrants, et al.).

No it's not. What gave you that idea? That I spoke a simple truth? I never said it is immigrants who are a problem or who I hate, it's the ruling class.

You are exactly the person I'm talking about -- calling me racist for daring to even discuss it. Well, not you actually, but the people who have convinced you that most of the working class are hordes of racist nazi white supremacists. I'm sure you mean well.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by bbarnett on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:50PM (#32074806)
In Ontaro, minimum pay is 3 hours, for just this reason.

http://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standar...

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by Scoundreller on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:51PM (#32076159)
except for students! But transportation is federally regulated, so rules for airports would be different.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by bbarnett on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:14PM (#32076378)
Yes, but to be clear, that's under 18... just in case someone thought university students...
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by Scoundreller on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:43PM (#32076712)
Looks like the exception for students is no longer a thing:

> As of January 1, 2019 the three-hour rule applies to students (including students over 18 years of age except if the student works:

> at a children’s camp, unless the student is also a wilderness guide > providing instruction to or supervising children, unless the student is also a wilderness guide > in a recreational program run by a charity, unless the student is also a wilderness guide.

I can’t tell why wilderness guides in particular are so special

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by bbarnett on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:01AM (#32106864)
I can’t tell why wilderness guides in particular are so special

To start, as a backgrounder, for centuries, wilderness guides have held a special place in Canadian society. They have been revered, trusted, even give special authority and powers, which even traditional law enforcement do not possess.

In as they are so trusted, discussion, conversation about their powers and capabilities have been purged from all archives. Conversation with outsiders is typically prohibited. Yet CSEC, the RCMP, and others will surely not pay attention to so old a thread! And it will be archived, recorded, saved for future posterity.

So it is my goal to lay out much detail here, for just that purpose. I do not believe such knowledge should be kept secret, for while great good can be attributed to our guides, some are concerned that great wrong is done too.

Before I start documenting this in detail, I want to reiterate that Canadians are not typically allowed to speak of guides. Often we are caught and censured for doing so! I could barely wait for time to pass, barely wait until no one was paying attention, so was my excitement at finally having interest.

Why, if the RCMP knew I was speaking of this now, there'd be utter and complete hell to pay, I suspeci)S(Dxcv0f#

<NO CARRIER>

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by nerdponx on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:14PM (#32075782)
> The erratic scheduling and the "cut" shifts were a feature, not a bug, we were told. It kept employees from getting a second job that they might dare prioritize over their current job.

I always suspected that this was the reason for abusive retail scheduling. Thanks for confirming my suspicion. This should be illegal.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by Hamuko on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:19PM (#32075106)
>large retail client who had a lot of turn-over and was looking for ways to "stabilize" hiring

>It kept employees from getting a second job that they might dare prioritize over their current job.

I mean, clearly it fucking didn't.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by FredPret on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:44PM (#32074736)
Lordy. They deserve their problems.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by turns0ut on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:44PM (#32075434)
Growing worker insecurity has been a policy since Reagan, I’d argue. They were much more honest about it back in the day[1]. Now it’s just how society works to all the younger folk.

They want to hand their kids the keys via no inheritance tax and recreate a top down monarchy.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-o...

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by datavirtue on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:21PM (#32075848)
The entire service industry is based on this manipulation.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by cafard on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:31PM (#32074608)
Wow.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:43PM (#32074733)
The comment is absolutely correct. Small, locally owned, franchises, and family businesses do it too. Back in 2015 or 2016, I sat at a lunch with the leaders of a business advocacy organization, and they were livid that Obama raised the statutory minimum salary to $45k or whatever it was, and how they could no longer pay an immigrant “manager” to work 80+ hour weeks for $31k.

The kicker? They were children of immigrants that did the same, except their parents were lucky to have immigrated back when buying a business/land was much cheaper. Land prices are now far higher for the newer immigrants to ever be able to save enough to get in on the ownership side of the business.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by jasonwatkinspdx on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:42PM (#32074720)
This is the reality now for many working class people in the US, and has been for some time. They end up working two part time jobs with constant scheduling conflicts, and god help you if you have childcare needs as well. It's very consciously and deliberately designed to minimize both employee costs and their bargaining power. I mean we have freaking companies demanding non compete agreements to work in fast food.

But god forbid you raise the point that perhaps we need a political shift that removes some power from corporations and restores it to labor, you get painted as socialized nazi commie scum or whatever. It's so insane and frustrating just how good a lock these businesses have on the situation (Don't even get me started on Walmart et all).

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by weaksauce on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:16PM (#32075803)
> But god forbid you raise the point that perhaps we need a political shift that removes some power from corporations and restores it to labor, you get painted as socialized nazi commie scum or whatever. It's so insane and frustrating just how good a lock these businesses have on the situation (Don't even get me started on Walmart et all).

To rational people this should be a no brainer. turns out a lot of people are not rational. the current system is not tenable in my opinion.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by brianbreslin on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:21PM (#32074502)
Wait till you dig into companies forcing non-competes on non-full time staff like this. Jimmy Johns didn't let their minimum wage sandwich cooks work at other fast food places. So not only are you not getting full time hours, you aren't getting health coverage, and have to find a job outside of QSR (quick serve restaurants) to make ends meet.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by vanattab on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:27PM (#32074568)
There is no way this is enforced though.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by rtkwe on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:53PM (#32074835)
It's a convenient cause to point to if they're being annoying about scheduling though and the threat of even a nonenforcable contract clause will stop most people, who can afford to fight it just to go back to a job where they'll make up another reason to fire you later anyways, assuming you're in a reasonable state that even forces them to do that.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by vanattab on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:20PM (#32075117)
I am not justifying Non-Competes for food service jobs, I am merely pointing out to anyone that might be in that position not to fear taking another job.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by alsetmusic on Thursday July 14, 2022 @10:25AM (#32096459)
Easier said than done and few of the affected people are likely to be members of this community (HN). Try telling that to a person getting threatened with losing their job.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by kevincox on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @08:55PM (#32077766)
"Luckily" the minimum wage part-time employees can't afford a lawyer to find out if it is unenforceable.

I think there needs to be some sort of law against known unenforceable contract provisions. They seem to be pretty commonly used against individuals where they are unlikely to know what is and isn't enforceable.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by brianbreslin on Friday July 15, 2022 @01:51PM (#32110912)
It seems like they dropped them after being sued by the state. So they must have been enforcing them enough to catch the attention of the Illinois AG. https://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/22/jimmy-johns-drops-non-compet...
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by MattGaiser on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:22PM (#32075148)
I would be curious if it were even enforceable under labour law.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by lordnacho on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:38PM (#32075353)
The issue with such problematic clauses is that even though they might not be enforceable, some fraction of people who sign them will stick to them, to their own detriment.

What's needed is some kind of harsh punishment for including unenforceable contract clauses, coupled with awareness from the side of the employee.

Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by mehlmao on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:24PM (#32076500)
The last few noncompetes I've been presented with have clauses saying that if any part of the noncompete is found to be illegal, the rest still stands. I wholeheartedly believe that if a noncompete contains elements that are illegal at the time of signing, the entire document should be void and the entity presenting it should owe damages.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by lozenge on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:45PM (#32076740)
That's standard wording in any contract, and in most cases it holds. However, the issue is who is going to present the case for the low wage worker who's lost say $200 in illegal deductions. There is no part of society that will reliably perform that role. By design of course.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by lordnacho on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @02:09AM (#32079489)
What happens if you are getting paid by a company for say a year and then the contract is discovered to be void?
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by verisimilitude on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:33PM (#32073986)
God, this is such a good point. This gap between scheduled hours (~20) versus expected dictation of 'available' hours (~40) is one of the things powering the obnoxious "side hustle" idea...
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by nerdponx on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:15PM (#32075787)
You should be paid for those extra 20 on-call hours.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by lozenge on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:41PM (#32076686)
It's especially egregious for an airport who know just how many flights take off and land and how many passengers they'll have weeks in advance.
Re:Heathrow tells airlines to stop selling additional flight... by turns0ut on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:41PM (#32075390)
This is the problem with a JIT economy in general.

They want to shave a lot of pennies for themselves by playing musical chairs with our agency.