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Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by marricks on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:00AM (#32001996)
Which typical Air buyer needs 16gb ram, the college student with 50 tabs open and Spotify in the background?

People complaining about low ram sound like the bros asking how many cylinders a car has. Doesn't matter for most people.

Just complain about price, yeah, it is expensive!

---

This is coming from someone who does light gaming on an 8gb m1 MacBook Air and has plenty of tabs open. I don't see lag.

Then again, I use safari, maybe Chrome it'd be different.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jmyeet on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:18AM (#32002272)
Remember it's not 8gb of dedicated RAM. It's 8gb shared with the video subsystem. Let's see how far that goes when you plug it into a 4K monitor and/or do anything that requires GPU acceleration (which can include simply decoding video).

I think 8gb is borderline criminally low in the circumstances. At least this thing has the option for 24gb though. I just wish that was a stocked model so you could just walk into a store and buy one without having to order it.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by bdhess on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:40AM (#32002583)
I use my 8 GB M1 Air with a 5K display regularly and the only situation where it struggles is gaming. Browsing with zillions of tabs, video, etc is beautiful and lag free.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jmull on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @01:24PM (#32004054)
For a frame of reference, one full frame buffer for a 4K monitor is around 32MB. Put another way, you can have about 32 of them per GB of RAM.

Not that you can’t use plenty of GPU RAM, but 8GB gives you a lot of room to work with. (Video decoding need all that much — probably three buffers worth per stream, and at the size of the video, not the screen.)

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by ohgodplsno on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @01:48PM (#32004383)
If you think a compositor only holds a single frame buffer (or even up to three), boy do I have some news for you about the last 30 years.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jmull on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @05:37PM (#32007123)
I think you're misunderstanding my comment.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by eropple on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:24AM (#32002349)
For what it's worth--when I had an 8GB Air, decoding video in a browser didn't seem to really impact performance. Plugging in an external monitor, though, was not a fun time.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by rolleiflex on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:58PM (#32003707)
I have a 32Gb M1 Pro as a work laptop and connecting a retina 4K external display is not a fun experience for me either. It was very surprising to see it fail to maintain 60fps in the OS’ own animations.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by phren0logy on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:25PM (#32005586)
That seems like something is wrong - if this is a known issue with such capable hardware I'd find that shocking
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by whynaut on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:32PM (#32005688)
Are you using the built-in HDMI port, or a dongle? I had the same issue before switching off the dongle.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by rolleiflex on Friday July 08, 2022 @11:27PM (#32031290)
This is through USBC which also charges the laptop.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by eropple on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:26PM (#32038431)
Is the connection handling HDMI natively, or via DisplayLink? I could definitely see performance issues being accentuated for DisplayLink.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by bluedino on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:27PM (#32005625)
> Remember it's not 8gb of dedicated RAM. It's 8gb shared with the video subsystem.

Just as it was before, with the Intel chips. Sure you had 64MB of eDRAM or whatever they called it as a cache but you were still using system memory for video.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by numpad0 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:13PM (#32003058)
This just occurred to me: They should add DRAM interface to M chips. Or maybe a RAM over PCIe device. Those RAM chips are gigantic off-die cache, can't replace RAM.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by lowbloodsugar on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:22PM (#32003190)
>I think 8gb is borderline criminally low in the circumstances.

I think Apple has a far better understanding, backed by actual data, of the circumstances than you, or indeed anyone here. My wife is still using her 2015 Air and has yet to plug it into anything, let alone 4k or 5k monitors that appears to be the "end game scenario" for posters here.

If you are posting on HN, then 8GB is not enough for you. I bought a 16GB M1 Air and it was great, and the day it came out I bought a 64GB M1 Max. But 8GB is more than enough for most of Apple's customers, and I'm sure they have the data to back that up.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by mixmastamyk on Thursday July 07, 2022 @05:09PM (#32019471)
If you mean data from the Finance department, yes.

In the cheapest M2/disk combo, threads here have said Apple have crippled the storage bandwidth relative to the M1, so relying on fast virtual memory is no longer an option. In that scenario 8GB is even more constraining than it was a year ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31962854

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jmyeet on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @01:31PM (#32004136)
I think you’re overstating the technical weight going into this decision. I think it’s almost all marketing.

Remember the 16gb iPhone? It really just existed to make the 32/64gb models look more reasonable and so Apple could say “From $lower_price_point”.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by lowbloodsugar on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:26PM (#32005615)
Confused by your reply. It is absolutely all marketing. Driven by data. They know their market, and the market for an 8GB M2 Air is not the HN crowd. Further, they know that the HN market exists, and will pay more for 16GB.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by 1123581321 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:43AM (#32002622)
The SoC contains hardware decoders and external monitors don't require a lot of video memory per se.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by smoldesu on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:52AM (#32002748)
> and external monitors don't require a lot of video memory per se.

That depends. Your average 1080p display doesn't really use a ton of video memory, but a 5k display connected to an internal 1440p display? That's a pretty huge framebuffer. AFAIK, Quartz also has a separate video buffer for each individual window, ranging from 50-150mb for the average application. Add it all up, and I agree that 8gb is pretty low, even with swap. Macs are memory-hungry devices, limiting your physical memory to 8gb is going to be really difficult to work with on anything that isn't text editing or light web browsing.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by 1123581321 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:00PM (#32002880)
I agree you hit memory limits per application if you run a lot at once, but WindowServer roughly uses about 10-20% more memory on 4-5k vs. 2k, running the same applications. The 1080 plus the external, perhaps 15-25%. I'm not saying this means 8GB is the right amount of RAM for you.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by adrr on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:13PM (#32003048)
How many people are using external display on an entry level laptop? Think of all you family members and friends who aren’t in the software field. I don’t even use an external monitor on my personal laptop and its MBP 16” Pro with 32GB of ram. At most I side car an Ipad but that is more power user stuff.

Air with 8 GM of ram is perfect for a personal laptop where your primary focus is web browsing, watching media and occasional video/photo editing.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by morganw on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:56PM (#32003668)
I have a Pro Display XDR for working at home w/ a 16" MacBook Pro M1 Max. I use it with my personal MacBook Air M1, too. I like my spreadsheets for personal finance BIG.

It's not just the GPU that shares memory with the CPU. The "media engine" buffers are in there, too at 18 megabytes per frame for 4k reference pictures in the decoded picture buffer. The decoder, scaler, GPU, and DRAM are fast enough to have several tracks of 4k (which even the iPhone 11 & SE can shoot), so don't let RAM size be your limit. I'm happy to see a max of 24GB vs. the M1's 16GB.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by smoldesu on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:16PM (#32003105)
> Air with 8 GM of ram is perfect for a personal laptop where your primary focus is web browsing, watching media and occasional video/photo editing.

I hear people say that today, but how is it going to feel in 2025, when you try loading up MacOS 16 on it? Given the trend of Apple's development, I don't think 8 gigs is going to be sufficient for most people going forward. That's basically iPad-tier memory constraints on a desktop-class operating system.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by adrr on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:26PM (#32003261)
Do people upgrade? I still see a bunch of old safari versions in our web traffic. It’s the biggest thorn in my side supporting them.

One thing that is a problem is that web pages get bigger and bigger and more resource intense. I doubt my 2011 air could handle a modern day web page with videos and a bunch of css transforms like on the apple site.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by smoldesu on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @02:09PM (#32004666)
> Do people upgrade? I still see a bunch of old safari versions in our web traffic. It’s the biggest thorn in my side supporting them.

I believe Apple is pretty good about keeping people on the latest versions of their software, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few stragglers or people using EOL devices that are stranded on an older build. I can definitely believe that it's a PITA supporting them, though. Working around MacOS shenanigans is the most frustrating part of my job too.

> One thing that is a problem is that web pages get bigger and bigger and more resource intense.

Eh... I'm not sure if I agree with that sentiment. In the early 2000s there were also people saying "desktop apps are going to get bigger and more resource-intensive", but that never really happened. In fact, the Java runtimes people used in that era were usually heavier than modern applications today, or evestn Electron-bundled programs. IMO, the web has been resource-intensive ever since Javascript became the lingua franca. Nowadays, I think we're making progress to reduce the resources used on websites. Things like WASM and lighter JS frameworks are going to make all the difference here. In fact, I can even see ourselves in another Web2 golden age in a few years. I personally don't think the SAAS landscape is long for this earth, and once it fades away, there will be less incentive to make bloated, broken applications and more of a focus on refining user experience and performance.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by naniwaduni on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:48PM (#32003547)
Do normal people not use their laptops like an iPad with a slightly less painful word processor experience?
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by bluedino on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:24PM (#32005580)
> How many people are using external display on an entry level laptop?

Everyone from the sounds of it. Half the threads on /r/mac are from people that want to connect 2/3 monitors to their M1 MacBooks

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by lalaithion on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:16PM (#32003093)
I have an 8gb M1 Air, and use it plugged into a 1440p monitor while watching video or in video calls. Maybe 4k would make a difference, I don't know—but most people don't have 4k monitors. 8gb is perfectly fine for me, and I'm probably in the top 10% of users as far as being a power user goes.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by eropple on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:17AM (#32002264)
Having had an M1 Air with 8GB of RAM--under very light use it was great, but under anything a little more taxing (a good number of tabs, having Discord open, a relatively "light" creative app like Logic or Fusion 360) it would very rapidly not just get bad, but get stop-the-world awful. (edit: and as a sibling poster notes, plugging it into an external monitor made things a lot worse!)

I don't know if MacOS's low-RAM behavior has anything particular to it that makes it act so erratically, but it's the only time using a Mac in the last ten years where I've gone "oh, this sucks." Going to 16GB of RAM is a way better spot, I think, for folks who want more than strictly web-browser-and-keyboard. (And those folks are probably better off with an iPad in 2022 I think? The current iPads are great.)

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by Aperocky on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:43AM (#32002624)
I have a M1 with 16G ram. I don't think 8GB ram is even feasible - and that's coming from a user whose primary interface is terminal.

16GB is great though, never had a problem with RAM issue.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by throw34 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:17PM (#32003121)
Usually it’s what’s being run inside the terminal that matters. ssh? no big deal. ffmpeg? can slow a machine down and can have a significant memory footprint.

YMMV

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by april_22 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @02:39PM (#32005038)
Why is that though? I have a ten year old machine at home with 8gigs of ram and it smoothly runs with alot of chrome tabs open?
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by Aperocky on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @08:45PM (#32008713)
M1 GPU also lives with the same RAM.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by Arcanum-XIII on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @01:47PM (#32004371)
Fusion is anything but light, and still not optimized for M1 (still a Rosetta app). Even on a beefy Workstation, it’s no fun. Logic is better but not exactly light if you have multiple track, AU plug-in…

So that’s not surprising - heck, with 16gb or ram it’s not a walk in the park. I’ve discussed with owner a Mac studio, and they were not happy for Fusion either, that’s with 64gb of ram so…

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by eropple on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @02:24PM (#32004817)
In my experience, Fusion and Logic both quite well on M1s with 16GB of RAM, no other changes. One variable makes a ton of difference.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by ajuc on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:30AM (#32002431)
> Which typical Air buyer needs 16gb ram

Typical Air user would be fine performance-wise with any laptop made in last 10 years TBH.

It's a premium product that is priced accordingly, so it's fine to complain about substandard specs.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jandrese on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:48PM (#32003545)
My feeling is that 8GB is barely adequate in 2020 for light or medium-light usage, a couple of MacOS updates and a few more apps switching to Electron and you're going to be chugging hard. This wouldn't be a problem except that the RAM can't be upgraded so you have a laptop that would probably last 6-8 years easy likely being kneecapped in 2-4 years instead.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by donny2018 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @01:15PM (#32003937)
As an owner of an 8gb M1 Air, I now think that a machine for “light usage” that can barely handle a half dozen of open tabs and 1 Docker container shouldn’t cost even half as much. I bought it for about $1700 with 512Gb SSD.

In fact, Apple should stop offering 8GB versions at this point as MacOS is very memory hungry compared to Windows. That yellow “memory pressure” graph is irritating.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by pen2l on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:46AM (#32002662)
My super light and thin [1] Carbon X1 Thinkpad from about 5 years ago has 16gb ram, half TB SSD and still runs like a champ with 200 tabs open.

It's just strange to see a premium brand product not being able to compete with same-category class products from a half-decade ago.

[1]: Lighter, in fact, than this MB Air M2

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by boardwaalk on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:38PM (#32003415)
You can spec it with or 16 or 24 GB and the CPU is going to be miles faster than your Thinkpad.

Sometimes I think people just want to feel good about their purchases… It’s 5 years old, it’s okay if it’s not top of the line anymore.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by pivo on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:30AM (#32002432)
We had to replace my wife’s intel MBP with 8G of memory because it was just not sufficient. She just does simple stuff with her laptop, web browsing, occasional videos, google spreadsheets and email. The thing would just grind to a halt. We bought a 16G MBP and she’s been fine.

I’m sure the ARM laptops are better with only 8G but I’m not going to test that idea. 16G is the bottom line for us from now on.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by 2143 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:22PM (#32003188)
> Which typical Air buyer needs 16gb ram, the college student with 50 tabs open and Spotify in the background?

How about a college student who contributes to large open source projects? (eg. Chromium or Firefox — I don't know if their memory footprint situation improved so these examples might not be valid today, but they definitely were back in the day). Don't underestimate college students ;)

People who complain about 8 GB being too low probably have a good reason.

I know I needed more than 8 GB because my 8 GB memory laptop always had it full (and was using swap) whenever I was using it for software development (and this laptop was already an upgrade from 4 GB).

However, I also know that I don't need more than 24 GB, because my utilization never reach anywhere close to that in practice.

The problem is more pronounced on computers with memory that cannot be upgraded.

> asking how many cylinders a car has. Doesn't matter for most people.

Where I'm at, the F10 BMW 525d used to come with a creamy smooth 6 cylinder straight six motor. Made a little over 200 hp and 460 Nm of torque.

Later, they changed the engine to a highly tuned 4 cylinder with nearly identical power and torque (still called "525d"). Infact, the 4 cyl motor has a little over 10 horses more than the 6 cyl, but it came at a higher rpm.

The driving experience was noticeably different. The 6 cylinder engine just felt effortless; in-gear acceleration (which matters during overtakes) was simply better. The 4 cyl motor felt strained.

Also, there's the other point that you'd know if you're into engines — straight 6 engines are inherently balanced and yadda yadda (=> no engine vibrations => very smooth), while other configurations need balancer shafts (which can't really be perfected), so the straight 6 engines are slightly more "clean" from an engineering perspective.

Sure, 120 km/h is 120 km/h regardless of cylinder count, but that's not the point. Environmental considerations are also a different matter.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by itsoktocry on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:54AM (#32002782)
>Which typical Air buyer needs 16gb ram, the college student with 50 tabs open and Spotify in the background?

If we're going to play that game, which college student requires a new MacBook Air at all?

I'm an industry professional and do my development on used ThinkPads. Sure there are are some people out there who need more processing power than I do, but not many, and certainly not in college.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by pletnes on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:48AM (#32002694)
I disagree, RAM is super important. But I went from win10 with 32 GB + dedicated nvidia with 4 GB to M1 on a mbp with just 16 GB. The M1 is still so much faster it’s like swapping a forklift with a fighter jet. I don’t think the numbers are comparable without more analysis of the workload and OS. FWIW I’m doing coding and data analysis with python and 99 tabs in 3 different browsers on both machines.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by haliskerbas on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:52AM (#32002755)
Yes. In college I had many tabs and many word documents open, a few IDEs, horribly inefficient LMS or video sharing sites, and massive lecture videos. Maybe a few chat apps to keep in touch with classmates.

If you’ve used google chrome with messenger dot com, that’s already eating into the ram budget a good amount.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by hajile on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:07PM (#32005377)
8GB results in lots of swapping with the SSD which greatly shortens SSD lifespan. That alone was reason enough to have 16GB.

I have an air for work with 16GB and frequently bump up against the amount of memory. I'm currently just waiting on reviews to decide between a 24GB Air and a 32GB Pro.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by Nursie on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:02AM (#32002028)
> Which typical Air buyer needs 16gb ram

The developer for whom a macbook air brings a huge amount of power?

I mean, they aren't low-end when compared to the general laptop market, they're awesome!

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by dewey on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:05AM (#32002068)
You responded to a comment about the "typical Air buyer". A developer is really not the typical Air buyer and more the target audience for a Pro line product even if that specific model is plenty fast.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by mrtranscendence on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:13AM (#32002208)
For what it's worth, I bought my partner an 8gb Air a couple months ago. I had reservations about that amount of memory but she insisted on not spending more money. As far as she's told me she's experienced no performance issues whatsoever as a non-developer (she uses her laptop for video conferencing, email, and web browsing).
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by ratww on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:39AM (#32002567)
I use my 8GB one for development (mostly web and Cocoa, but also some 3d stuff w/Metal) and the only issues are with things like Microsoft Teams or some other memory hog, but even my co-workers with 32GB machines suffer with those, so I guess it's alright.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by CamelRocketFish on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:31PM (#32003339)
I switched to running MS teams in safari as the app was terribly resource intensive. Unfortunately it’s only safari that works with voice/video calls.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by ratww on Thursday July 07, 2022 @10:04AM (#32014256)
I might accept your advice and do the same. It's really mind boggling how slow it is for me lately after some upgrades :(
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by Nursie on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @10:36PM (#32009376)
> A developer is really not the typical Air buyer

They may be the target of the pro line, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the performance of the M1 attracted more developers to the Air line. I saw no reason to go to the 'Pro' when I got mine.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by adwww on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:42AM (#32002611)
I think the high price actually means that is a typical user. The original casual user type this has been designed for likely use iPads or Chromebooks at this point.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by nightski on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:30AM (#32002430)
Sounds like Apple. For a premium price they give you only bare minimum and if you want anything more you can pay thousands of dollars in pure premium and profit for Apple.

Of course sheep will keep buying these things.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by thrill on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:08PM (#32002970)
There's no reason to insult people.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by nightski on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @02:04PM (#32004599)
There is when they are paying $200 for 8GB of ram.