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Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jmyeet on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:18AM (#32002272)
Remember it's not 8gb of dedicated RAM. It's 8gb shared with the video subsystem. Let's see how far that goes when you plug it into a 4K monitor and/or do anything that requires GPU acceleration (which can include simply decoding video).

I think 8gb is borderline criminally low in the circumstances. At least this thing has the option for 24gb though. I just wish that was a stocked model so you could just walk into a store and buy one without having to order it.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by bdhess on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:40AM (#32002583)
I use my 8 GB M1 Air with a 5K display regularly and the only situation where it struggles is gaming. Browsing with zillions of tabs, video, etc is beautiful and lag free.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jmull on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @01:24PM (#32004054)
For a frame of reference, one full frame buffer for a 4K monitor is around 32MB. Put another way, you can have about 32 of them per GB of RAM.

Not that you can’t use plenty of GPU RAM, but 8GB gives you a lot of room to work with. (Video decoding need all that much — probably three buffers worth per stream, and at the size of the video, not the screen.)

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by ohgodplsno on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @01:48PM (#32004383)
If you think a compositor only holds a single frame buffer (or even up to three), boy do I have some news for you about the last 30 years.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jmull on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @05:37PM (#32007123)
I think you're misunderstanding my comment.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by eropple on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:24AM (#32002349)
For what it's worth--when I had an 8GB Air, decoding video in a browser didn't seem to really impact performance. Plugging in an external monitor, though, was not a fun time.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by rolleiflex on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:58PM (#32003707)
I have a 32Gb M1 Pro as a work laptop and connecting a retina 4K external display is not a fun experience for me either. It was very surprising to see it fail to maintain 60fps in the OS’ own animations.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by phren0logy on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:25PM (#32005586)
That seems like something is wrong - if this is a known issue with such capable hardware I'd find that shocking
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by whynaut on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:32PM (#32005688)
Are you using the built-in HDMI port, or a dongle? I had the same issue before switching off the dongle.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by rolleiflex on Friday July 08, 2022 @11:27PM (#32031290)
This is through USBC which also charges the laptop.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by eropple on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:26PM (#32038431)
Is the connection handling HDMI natively, or via DisplayLink? I could definitely see performance issues being accentuated for DisplayLink.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by bluedino on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:27PM (#32005625)
> Remember it's not 8gb of dedicated RAM. It's 8gb shared with the video subsystem.

Just as it was before, with the Intel chips. Sure you had 64MB of eDRAM or whatever they called it as a cache but you were still using system memory for video.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by numpad0 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:13PM (#32003058)
This just occurred to me: They should add DRAM interface to M chips. Or maybe a RAM over PCIe device. Those RAM chips are gigantic off-die cache, can't replace RAM.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by lowbloodsugar on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:22PM (#32003190)
>I think 8gb is borderline criminally low in the circumstances.

I think Apple has a far better understanding, backed by actual data, of the circumstances than you, or indeed anyone here. My wife is still using her 2015 Air and has yet to plug it into anything, let alone 4k or 5k monitors that appears to be the "end game scenario" for posters here.

If you are posting on HN, then 8GB is not enough for you. I bought a 16GB M1 Air and it was great, and the day it came out I bought a 64GB M1 Max. But 8GB is more than enough for most of Apple's customers, and I'm sure they have the data to back that up.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by mixmastamyk on Thursday July 07, 2022 @05:09PM (#32019471)
If you mean data from the Finance department, yes.

In the cheapest M2/disk combo, threads here have said Apple have crippled the storage bandwidth relative to the M1, so relying on fast virtual memory is no longer an option. In that scenario 8GB is even more constraining than it was a year ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31962854

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by jmyeet on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @01:31PM (#32004136)
I think you’re overstating the technical weight going into this decision. I think it’s almost all marketing.

Remember the 16gb iPhone? It really just existed to make the 32/64gb models look more reasonable and so Apple could say “From $lower_price_point”.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by lowbloodsugar on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:26PM (#32005615)
Confused by your reply. It is absolutely all marketing. Driven by data. They know their market, and the market for an 8GB M2 Air is not the HN crowd. Further, they know that the HN market exists, and will pay more for 16GB.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by 1123581321 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:43AM (#32002622)
The SoC contains hardware decoders and external monitors don't require a lot of video memory per se.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by smoldesu on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @11:52AM (#32002748)
> and external monitors don't require a lot of video memory per se.

That depends. Your average 1080p display doesn't really use a ton of video memory, but a 5k display connected to an internal 1440p display? That's a pretty huge framebuffer. AFAIK, Quartz also has a separate video buffer for each individual window, ranging from 50-150mb for the average application. Add it all up, and I agree that 8gb is pretty low, even with swap. Macs are memory-hungry devices, limiting your physical memory to 8gb is going to be really difficult to work with on anything that isn't text editing or light web browsing.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by 1123581321 on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:00PM (#32002880)
I agree you hit memory limits per application if you run a lot at once, but WindowServer roughly uses about 10-20% more memory on 4-5k vs. 2k, running the same applications. The 1080 plus the external, perhaps 15-25%. I'm not saying this means 8GB is the right amount of RAM for you.
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by adrr on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:13PM (#32003048)
How many people are using external display on an entry level laptop? Think of all you family members and friends who aren’t in the software field. I don’t even use an external monitor on my personal laptop and its MBP 16” Pro with 32GB of ram. At most I side car an Ipad but that is more power user stuff.

Air with 8 GM of ram is perfect for a personal laptop where your primary focus is web browsing, watching media and occasional video/photo editing.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by morganw on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:56PM (#32003668)
I have a Pro Display XDR for working at home w/ a 16" MacBook Pro M1 Max. I use it with my personal MacBook Air M1, too. I like my spreadsheets for personal finance BIG.

It's not just the GPU that shares memory with the CPU. The "media engine" buffers are in there, too at 18 megabytes per frame for 4k reference pictures in the decoded picture buffer. The decoder, scaler, GPU, and DRAM are fast enough to have several tracks of 4k (which even the iPhone 11 & SE can shoot), so don't let RAM size be your limit. I'm happy to see a max of 24GB vs. the M1's 16GB.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by smoldesu on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:16PM (#32003105)
> Air with 8 GM of ram is perfect for a personal laptop where your primary focus is web browsing, watching media and occasional video/photo editing.

I hear people say that today, but how is it going to feel in 2025, when you try loading up MacOS 16 on it? Given the trend of Apple's development, I don't think 8 gigs is going to be sufficient for most people going forward. That's basically iPad-tier memory constraints on a desktop-class operating system.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by adrr on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:26PM (#32003261)
Do people upgrade? I still see a bunch of old safari versions in our web traffic. It’s the biggest thorn in my side supporting them.

One thing that is a problem is that web pages get bigger and bigger and more resource intense. I doubt my 2011 air could handle a modern day web page with videos and a bunch of css transforms like on the apple site.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by smoldesu on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @02:09PM (#32004666)
> Do people upgrade? I still see a bunch of old safari versions in our web traffic. It’s the biggest thorn in my side supporting them.

I believe Apple is pretty good about keeping people on the latest versions of their software, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few stragglers or people using EOL devices that are stranded on an older build. I can definitely believe that it's a PITA supporting them, though. Working around MacOS shenanigans is the most frustrating part of my job too.

> One thing that is a problem is that web pages get bigger and bigger and more resource intense.

Eh... I'm not sure if I agree with that sentiment. In the early 2000s there were also people saying "desktop apps are going to get bigger and more resource-intensive", but that never really happened. In fact, the Java runtimes people used in that era were usually heavier than modern applications today, or evestn Electron-bundled programs. IMO, the web has been resource-intensive ever since Javascript became the lingua franca. Nowadays, I think we're making progress to reduce the resources used on websites. Things like WASM and lighter JS frameworks are going to make all the difference here. In fact, I can even see ourselves in another Web2 golden age in a few years. I personally don't think the SAAS landscape is long for this earth, and once it fades away, there will be less incentive to make bloated, broken applications and more of a focus on refining user experience and performance.

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by naniwaduni on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:48PM (#32003547)
Do normal people not use their laptops like an iPad with a slightly less painful word processor experience?
Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by bluedino on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @03:24PM (#32005580)
> How many people are using external display on an entry level laptop?

Everyone from the sounds of it. Half the threads on /r/mac are from people that want to connect 2/3 monitors to their M1 MacBooks

Re:New MacBook Air with M2 by lalaithion on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @12:16PM (#32003093)
I have an 8gb M1 Air, and use it plugged into a 1440p monitor while watching video or in video calls. Maybe 4k would make a difference, I don't know—but most people don't have 4k monitors. 8gb is perfectly fine for me, and I'm probably in the top 10% of users as far as being a power user goes.