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Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rglullis on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @08:07AM (#31987201)
What other word would you describe when people cry over "lack of diversity" when the story is set in a fantasy world that did not have such type of diversity to begin with?
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @08:29AM (#31987396)
I love how it's fine for there to be dragons and magic in fantasy. But minorities? That's a bridge too far.
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rglullis on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @08:56AM (#31987637)
Oh, please... no one is complaining about having minorities. The point is retconning a different type of "diversity" into a story just for the purpose of marketing for the current consumer base and its cultural sensitivities.

Taking a cultural landmark and just repackaging it (new version with 20% more "minorities"!) where the race of the actors does not change anything for the story being told is just cheap tokenism.

By all means, I'd love to see new stories and new characters, and these stories could benefit greatly from a diverse cast. You can use the diversity then to show how different people value different things, how conflict can come up due to these differences, how conflict can be solved despite these differences, and so on... let's just not pretend that this crap that Hollywood wants to shove down our throats is any good just because it ticks the right woke checkboxes.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @02:10PM (#31991678)
> where the race of the actors does not change anything for the story being told

So what's the problem with casting someone of a different race then? There are plenty of talented non-white actors in Hollywood that get passed over for roles because the "canonical" race of so many classic characters is "white". I agree that the motivation at the corporate level is sometimes to check a "diversity" check box - but for the actors this means getting work and getting paid as opposed to not.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rglullis on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @02:49PM (#31992172)
The issue is not with the casting.

The issue is with the lack of new stories and the idea that just putting some color on "stories where the classic characters is white" is enough.

Diversity is something to be cherished. But if all we do is to, e.g, take Mozart pieces and give to conductors of different races and backgrounds, are we really promoting diversity or are we just putting a corporate spin in institutionalized racism, and implicitly perpetuating the idea that "classical" (or better, "erudite") music can only be valued if it comes from dead white people?

I haven't been watching much TV or movies lately, and one of the main reasons is that it seems that most of things come out are just re-heated servings of old stuff. The one exception that I can think of is Atlanta, which deserves praise exactly because it is more focused in telling a story and taking risks than in merely following a certain formula to please the audiences.

So, to repeat: the story of LoTR has been told already. It has its context and its place. To get diversity now, I rather see these talented people telling new stories, with their own voices and their own perspectives, not just put on some kind of display by the studios and used to manufacture fake virtue.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by notahacker on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @02:43PM (#31992090)
Oh please... a subthread which the GP started by retconning Tolkien as "what passes for white supremacy these days" to argue it was being ruined by casting (with digressions into Marxism spoiling beauty) now itself gets retconned as "nobody complaining about having minorities"

Every film makes hundreds of decisions to appeal to different sections of movie audiences and live up to expectations of modern movies from casting unusually attractive people to typecasting English accents in a non-English world to cutting half the original scenes in a book and shoehorning an implied love interest in there, yet somehow all this pandering to consumers' cultural sensitivities that actually change established storylines get less hostility than the decision to cast a black woman in a fantasy series whose entirely new [for licensing and lack of material reasons] plot lines aren't even known yet. If people consider Tolkien's world not having segregated casting to being "crap Hollywood wants to shove down our throats", it's hard to believe they're doing so more out of concern diverse issues aren't being represented properly and less out of hostility to the idea that white people might not always be the default.

the irony is of course that whilst being far from woke, Tolkien thought white supremacist ethnography utterly risible, included a Legolas/Gimli subplot as heavy-handed as any Hollywood antiracism parable, wasn't especially bothered about describing skin tones or appearance, and to the extent he did, made it clear that Middle Earth as a precursor to the modern world included darker skinned people.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by workingon on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @12:25PM (#31990287)
There is a long history in theatre of casting people in roles who aren’t the same as the character. Notably men would often be cast in female roles. Maybe, just maybe, if seeing a brown elf ruins a show for you the problem isn’t with the show.
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rglullis on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @12:47PM (#31990577)
"Fun" fact: men would play women because acting was considered a very low class activity, and women that acted were seen as prostitutes.

Anyway, you just missed the point and I am not in the mood of arguing with someone who can't understand nuance in thought. Have a good day.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by workingon on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @01:03PM (#31990787)
Yeah, the guy who can enjoy a show with a brown person playing an elf is the one who can’t understand nuance in thought.
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rglullis on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @01:24PM (#31991081)
Precisely. The same guy who thinks that parroting their self-righteousness is a virtue. The same guy who can not understand the difference between diversity and tokenism. That's the guy who can not understand nuance in thought.
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by workingon on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @02:37PM (#31992017)
Your cognitive disconnect is ridiculous. Pointing out that you finding that a show is worse because they cast brown people as elves is not a fault of the show has nothing to do with my self-righteousness, though you're happy to spread your own self-righteousness throughout this thread while talking about how butthurt you are that they'd dare destroy your favorite show by casting brown people in a traditional white role. I care little about e-cred. You also aren't the guy that gets to decide what the difference between diversity and tokenism is.
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rglullis on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @03:05PM (#31992351)
> Pointing out that you finding that a show is worse because they cast brown people as elves

Go ahead and tell me where I am saying anything about my personal opinion about this particular show. (Hint, I didn't!) Also, please tell me why you chose to ignore everything I wrote in the third paragraph of the top comment.

You are passing a value judgement over what you think you read instead of what was actually written, and you continue to try to push that as an argument.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by prepend on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @09:00AM (#31987680)
I hear this argument quite a bit and think it’s shallow. Of course, I’m not against diversity in casting, but am against bad arguments.

Stories have internal consistency. So while Tolkien has dragons and magic, they all make sense together. If a character pulls out an iPhone it doesn’t fit and detracts from the stories.

Saying “but iPhones? That’s a bridge too far, how can you believe in dragons but not iPhones.” The story isn’t random and it’s not everything.

Tolkien goes into genealogy of characters so switching the skin color requires lots of other changes to maintain that sense of reality. If a character now has purple skin instead of green skin, then that might mean something.

I think this also applies to any story and it’s not so much about changing characters demographics and more about bad storytelling that detracts from the reality of the story.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by runarberg on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @12:52PM (#31990637)
> Tolkien goes into genealogy of characters so switching the skin color requires lots of other changes to maintain that sense of reality.

But Tolkien didn’t specify what traits inherit in which races did he? How do you know how skin tone inherits in this magical world?

Even in our universe we have species such as Chimpanzees which grow darker skinned as they age? How do you know the same doesn’t happen with wizards? In our natural world color is indeed quite dynamic. Even human skin tones, hair colors, etc. are quite dynamic in our world (even among related individuals). In a magical world there is nothing preventing the different races from being even more dynamic and diverse.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @02:21PM (#31991830)
Indeed. There are elves that live for thousands years and have magic powers. There are some humans who have a normal lifespan and others, like Aragorn, that live for hundreds of years. Elves and humans can somehow cross-breed. Why should we assume that Middle Earth genetics work anything like normal Earth genetics? It's so weird to insist on keeping this one aspect of human genetics when everything else seems to be up for grabs.
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by cygx on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @03:29PM (#31992623)
Why should we assume that Middle Earth genetics work anything like normal Earth genetics?

Note that Middle-earth Earth ('Arda') supposedly is normal Earth: LotR takes place during the Third Age, whereas we're currently in the Sixth or Seventh Age.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by runarberg on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @04:53PM (#31993560)
Even if you assume that genetics works the same way in Middle-earth (where you know, magic exists) and today’s earth, why would anyone assume it works the same on the magical species as it does with modern humans?

Modern humans are one of the most homogeneous species we know of (apart from the our crops that we have bred into homogeneity) and even humans show very dynamic inheritance patterns. A red hair can pop up after several generations of different hair colors for example.

There is no reason to assume that genetics in different (often magical) species is less dynamic then in modern humans. If anything we should have more variety and more dynamic traits as different races are interbreeding then today. If only for the reason that more diversity opens more possibilities for more creative and fun stories.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rsynnott on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @08:43AM (#31987532)
Most of the characters in LoTR weren't even _humans_, were they? It's hard to see what issue people would have with minority actors playing an elf or whatever.
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by freilanzer on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @09:32AM (#31988001)
If I write a (non-human, not that that matters anyway) race and describe them as being of "ivory skin" vs "ebony skin" then it matters. If it's just regular people then it doesn't.

It depends on the setting.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by ceejayoz on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @10:11AM (#31988388)
It matters if it's a key plot point. If it's got no impact on the plot, there's no harm in changing it a little. Plenty of other things described in the books get tweaked for TV/film; it's a little sus if only skin color changes get you upset.

If you did a find/replace on LOTR for "ivory" with "ebony", zero elements of the story would be impacted.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by freilanzer on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @06:34AM (#31999047)
It's also sus if the only thing that gets changed is the skin colour for no apparent reason, other than to appease twitter. Like I said, the setting is important.

The world was designed in this way for a reason, by the author. It's the same thing the other way around: changing every character from black or 'asian' to white, if the story is otherwise unaffected, would be ridiculous.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by ceejayoz on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @10:00AM (#32001020)
> It's also sus if the only thing that gets changed is the skin colour for no apparent reason, other than to appease twitter.

"It must be to appease Twitter, can't possibly be because the actor had a good audition" seems pretty racist. If Amazon was afraid of Twitter, they'd be pro-union.

> It's the same thing the other way around: changing every character from black or 'asian' to white

That's not the same thing, though. The new LOTR series hasn't changed every character to Black or Asian. Nowhere near it.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rsynnott on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @11:10AM (#31989142)
Well, the oliphaunts might be a bit happier, unless that was The Hobbit (I haven't read these for about 20 years).

But yeah, it'd be pretty weird if a TV adaptation _was_ word-for-word the same as the book, honestly. That's virtually never done, and rarely ends well when it is.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by oxfeed65261 on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @06:33PM (#31994570)
John LeCarre explicitly describes George Smiley as short, overweight, and balding. None of these apply to Alec Guinness or Gary Oldman in their respective portrayals of the character. This doesn’t make their portrayals any less arresting.
Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by Akronymus on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @08:37AM (#31987473)
Tolkien wrote from a perspective of what he experienced. That being early to mid 1900s england. Which simply didn't have many nonwhite people.

Also, I think most aren't actually opposed to minorities being in the show, but rather the hamfisted way they think theyll be included with. (I personally expect racism being a big part of the show that will need to be fought.)

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by rsynnott on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @11:15AM (#31989211)
> That being early to mid 1900s england.

Not that I think this is _particularly_ relevant (as mentioned elsewhere, most of the characters aren't even _human_, and it's not like he generally specified "but if they _were_ humans, the Ringwraiths would definitely be white"), but LoTR was finished in 1949. There were lots of non-white people in the UK in 1949; if you've heard of the Windrush scandal, the people impacted by that arrived the year before, and it's not like they were the first non-white people in the UK...

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @02:26PM (#31991889)
> I personally expect racism being a big part of the show that will need to be fought.

I agree that this would be extremely hamfisted. Especially considering the books already have some metaphors for racism like the strained relationship between elves and dwarves. However, I also think this kind of a thing is just a symptom of bad writing - not some woke conspiracy.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by samatman on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @04:44PM (#31993455)
There are plenty of minorities in Middle Earth.

The Rohanim, for instance.

Or, in the racist euphemism way you've chosen to use it, the Haradrim.

Re:Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Ring... by roflyear on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @10:03AM (#31988301)
What prevents you from casting minorities b/c it is fantasy? What crazy logic is that?