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Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by joshstrange on Friday July 01, 2022 @01:58PM (#31950212)
It's absolute insanity that they don't see that the best talent can and will walk out the door if this happens. Even if the top performers are insulated from the "heat" there are a non-zero number of them that this won't sit right with and/or they are affected and they leave.

Any company who uses this kind of shadow-layoff or whatever you want to call it is scum, plain and simple. I mean that's no surprise for Meta or maybe even Tesla but as I see other companies employee this "tactic" I just add them to my list of "places I'd never consider working". Such short-sighted thinking.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by sbf501 on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:13PM (#31950449)
> It's absolute insanity that they don't see that the best talent can and will walk out the door if this happens. E

When your 51% CEO has so little life experience, what did you expect? There's a reason why - IN GENERAL - the best CEOs are older than 55.

Zuck got lucky with FB and made billions selling personal data and retained 51% control. Did we really think he was actually GOOD at anything?

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by joshstrange on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:20PM (#31950556)
> Did we really think he was actually GOOD at anything?

Lol, absolutely not. He got lucky, stole someone else's idea, and had a massive safety net to fall back on. I'm not saying he has zero skills but managing to hold onto 51% of the company does not make you a good CEO (as you stated).

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by edmundsauto on Saturday July 02, 2022 @01:30PM (#31960833)
So are you saying that the idea is what mattered, and not execution? How come other people with the exact same idea didn’t make it, given they had the head start?
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by aeturnum on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:09PM (#31950377)
It's also...if they have the ability to recognize and protect their high performers - why "turn up the heat" in general? You've already identified who isn't performing.

Conversely, if you can't avoid harassing your highest performers - those seem like the people who will leave first, while the people who are under-performing will dig in to avoid risking the job market.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by foepys on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:15PM (#31950481)
> Even if the top performers are insulated from the "heat" there are a non-zero number of them that this won't sit right with and/or they are affected and they leave.

I have seen instances where the "underperformers" were the people that made the workplace/team pleasant to be in. Once they were let go, some overperfomers quit not much later.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by DisjointedHunt on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:05PM (#31950319)
AWS is another. The gripe i have with them is they do it during the good times as well. I've seen some pretty horrible effects on perfectly good devs who were subject to what i'm only going to characterize as mental torture during their time there.
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by colonelpopcorn on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:19PM (#31950546)
This in regards to their warehouse workforce, but relevant to devs as well: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jun/22/amazon-wo...
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by BeFlatXIII on Friday July 01, 2022 @04:19PM (#31952228)
> Even if the top performers are insulated from the "heat" there are a non-zero number of them that this won't sit right with and/or they are affected and they leave.

Or some of the low (but not negative) productivity teammates get pushed out and the top performer follows them because keeping them around was good for morale for reasons unrelated to their actual job descriptions (or their individual metrics were rubbish but they also were valued assistants who unlocked the top guy to work at full speed).

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by PragmaticPulp on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:05PM (#31950323)
> It's absolute insanity that they don't see that the best talent can and will walk out the door if this happens.

On the contrary, the best talent is probably already performing to these higher expectations and won't be impacted. Their peers who weren't keeping up are the ones who will be impacted.

Holding employees accountable for high performance standards is generally welcomed by high performers.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by AlexandrB on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:11PM (#31950420)
If my CEO said:

> “Realistically, there are probably a bunch of people at the company who shouldn’t be here,” Zuckerberg said during the meeting, according to Reuters.

I'd probably start looking for another job. It's one thing to fire poor performers, it's another to make vague allusions to "people who shouldn't be here". If they shouldn't be there, fire them. Otherwise, this just sounds like management has no clue.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by PragmaticPulp on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:16PM (#31950496)
> If they shouldn't be there, fire them.

No, you set clear performance expectations, give them feedback, and then hold them accountable if they don't meet those performance expectations. Which seems to be what Meta is doing here.

I honestly can't believe so many people in this thread would prefer that Meta just slash and burn employees instead of giving them expectations and a chance to meet them.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by juve1996 on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:22PM (#31953129)
> I honestly can't believe so many people in this thread would prefer that Meta just slash and burn employees instead of giving them expectations and a chance to meet them.

I honestly can't believe you'd trust this kind of management to give fair expectations.

Let's be honest. They know who they're going to get rid of. Now they just have to create the pre-text.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by monkey_monkey on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:20PM (#31950552)
I'm surprised you actually believe that a company that has incompetently hired thousands of excess people will suddenly have an amazing process for setting performance expectations and holding people accountable.

Some people might just think those are weasel words to cover an impending large-scale RIF.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by AlexandrB on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:28PM (#31950692)
Are you suggesting that Facebook has no performance evaluation process for the employees at all right now? If they do, it seems like you could look at those evaluations and make some decisions immediately. If they don't, then fair enough, implement that. What's the purpose of "turning up the heat" to try to get people to quit? And, as others have mentioned, those who quit first if you make their lives harder will be the ones that have other options (usually the high performers).
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by DragonStrength on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:17PM (#31950510)
Yep, I don't want to work in a fear-based management structure. Sorry for those who don't have better options, but I'm walking when I hear stuff like this.
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by vkou on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:16PM (#31950508)
Everyone knows that there are poor performers in any organization, but nobody knows for sure who many of them are.
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by SQueeeeeL on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:09PM (#31950383)
Lol, anyone who's really a high performer knows that being metriced is terrible. Having to constantly be cranking out LoC because some middle manager doesn't actually understand the process of actually making software is infuriating. And even if they are doing well now, no one wants to feel that dark gnawing instability that comes from knowing the people on your team you grow to know and trust are constantly on the chopping block.
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by joshstrange on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:15PM (#31950477)
Exactly.

At a previous job the management team got all excited about KPIs and made each dept come up ~5 of them and then report on them weekly (or maybe it was monthly). I fought it tooth and nail arguing that it was both silly that we were coming up with them and how easily it would be gamed. My concerns fell of deaf ears and instead we wasted upwards of 4-6 person-weeks of time building tools to extract data from Jira to serve as our KPIs. We wrote the damn code to calculate it, of course we know how to juice the numbers. It was a huge waste of time, nothing interesting came out of it (for us or any department), and "management" patted themselves on the back for "taking action".

I'm not say all metrics suck and are a waste of time but you better have a very good reason for them before you go all-in.

A friend of mine's company started requiring all their developers to track their time, down to the 15min interval. I'd be looking for a new job within a week. Don't even get me started on how asking your employees to track their time is essentially asking them to lie which means the stats you get are worthless, worse than worthless because time tracking takes time on it's own to do.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by sbf501 on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:15PM (#31950479)
Really high performance MANAGERS understand you can't succeed at scale without indicators. You seem to come from the naive viewpoint that solo devs rule the world and run open-loop like some imaginary hotshot. That couldn't be more wrong.
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by jfim on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:29PM (#31950709)
This really depends on the definition of success. If success is just execution without needing to be too novel, metrics work.

Coming up with a new idea, researching its feasibility, and executing on it isn't really doable with rigidly monitored metrics, because a lot of the productive work on novel things looks like thinking about things and trying things that don't work out.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by SQueeeeeL on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:23PM (#31950597)
Anyone who isn't directly contributing to a product can't be high performing. Maybe they can be supportive of high performing individuals, but usually that just entails keeping upper management out of the way.

As a field we have yet to find good metrics for coding performance, anyone who tells you otherwise just wants to have an excuse to fire you when they suddenly decide that you no longer serve their purposes, even if those purposes is just to have a cool social club that validates their fragile ego.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by joshstrange on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:27PM (#31950674)
I couldn't agree more, especially about the lack of good metrics for coding performance. I feel like more often than not metrics or even new "policies" are put into place just to provide cover for firing people. So they can "backsolve" or use "parallel construction" to justify the firing.
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by sbf501 on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:42PM (#31953946)
> Anyone who isn't directly contributing to a product can't be high performing.

Are you implying managers don't directly contribute to a product? Because wow, you're really either horribly naive or wildly narcissistic. As a someone who managed programmers for almost 20 years, only a fraction were hands-off. Why do you think all the 10x engineers become managers? A high performing manager hits targets, ships products, and makes customers happy. If you think a hot shot programmer on a team can do this all by themselves, I don't know what to tell you. You'll have to learn the hard way.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by joshstrange on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:10PM (#31950396)
I guess it really comes down to what specifically "turning up the heat" means. It sounds like a hell of KPIs and other stupid metrics that waste everyone's time so that a manager can boil a person down to a number instead of doing their job and making hard calls.

I've been a high (if not the highest) performer at companies I've worked at (albeit much smaller companies Meta), if they suddenly want me to log my hours, do a bunch of metric-related BS, or grade me on KPIs that have no basis in reality then I'm leaving.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by CaptainZapp on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:30PM (#31961634)
> I guess it really comes down to what specifically "turning up the heat" means.

To me it means: "Nice job you have here, would be a shame if something happens to it!"

I had senior level managers communicating along those lines and squandered my respect in about 3 seconds.

Not that it really matters, but still.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by littlestymaar on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:27PM (#31950673)
> Holding employees accountable for high performance standards is generally welcomed by high performers.

While this is true (working in a company that doesn't value high performers over slackers is infuriating for the former), it's really unlikely that you'll be able to change your company's culture in the right direction at will (if rewarding high performers and kicking the butt of low performers was that easy why weren't you doing so all along ?!), so what's usually happening is:

- the management starts monitoring some KPI some consulting firm told them to monitor

- they start annoy everyone in the company based on these BS arbitry “holly metrics”, which are indeed poor performance indicators and are easily gameable

- top performers will be pissed off and leave

- low performers will do all they can to maximize their metrics instead of doing actual work, reducing their productivity even more

- congrats you've destroyed your company's talent pool and have now turned Meta into IBM. Too bad you don't even have a sales department on par with IBM's, so you'll probably end up like AOL or Yahoo!

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by bayindirh on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:23PM (#31950600)
There's evidence that best talent works best when there's slack and when they crash, they crash hard.

For example, I have an optimal load which I can work almost indefinitely and performing very well (in my own scale), when the load shots up, I lock up.

This is why I'm automating as much as I can, so I can keep in that optimal zone which I perform really well.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by colonelpopcorn on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:18PM (#31950535)
Unless the baseline is where the high performers are performing at right now.

It's a win-win for companies to hold employees to high standards. Either they sacrifice health, family, relationships, hobbies, etc. to meet unsustainable demands or they "self-select" and the company no longer has to pay their salary, healthcare, benefits, etc. In the economic climate we're living in, it just makes economic sense to squeeze as much productivity as possible out of your workers. This includes pushing already high performing workers to do more than they already are.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by JohnBooty on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:19PM (#31950544)
This assumes that you have solved the decades-old problem of measuring knowledge worker productivity in some sort of concise and accurate way.

What's your solution here for engineers? Counting the lines of code they write?

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by datalopers on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:26PM (#31950659)
> It's absolute insanity that they don't see that the best talent can and will walk out the door if this happens

Or maybe the best talent is sick of these overpaid rest-and-vest lackeys and more than happy to see them get the axe.

Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by tsimionescu on Friday July 01, 2022 @03:06PM (#31951192)
Why would you think that the people who managed to navigate office politics enough to avoid being fired so far are the ones who will get fired now?
Re:Meta slashes hiring plans, girds for 'fierce' headwinds by datalopers on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:09PM (#31953661)
For sure they may not, but this announcement implies they're aggressively looking for people to terminate